Write Big: Beyond the Book Deal

Host Jennie Nash talks with novelist and journalist Caroline Madden about why writers crave traditional publishing deals and how that desire can become an unhealthy obsession tied to external validation and “pick me” energy. Madden recounts a 20-year path to publication, including losing two agents and dying on submission, then changing her writing through Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, Nash’s Blueprint for a Book, and Donald Maass’s Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook; her later two novels earned deals, including her debut The Marriage Vendetta (HarperCollins) and a forthcoming book.

They discuss how redefining “why,” setting a bigger North Star (for Madden, contributing to feminist issues), releasing desperation, and defining success concretely can stabilize writers through rejection and shifting goalposts. Madden advises seeking blunt, market-informed feedback from industry professionals and emphasizes control through craft and writing rather than chasing validation.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Books Mentioned in this Episode

* Story Genius by Lisa Cron

* Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass

* The Marriage Vendetta by Caroline Madden

The Substack Exchange We Couldn’t Find — We Found It!

Blueprint Courses

👉 Enroll in the Fiction Blueprint Course

👉 Enroll in the Memoir Blueprint Course

👉 Enroll in the Nonfiction Blueprint Course

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey, everyone. It’s Jennie, and I have a really fun episode today. I’m speaking with novelist Carolyn Madden, and we just had a fun interaction on Substack about a really profound thing, and we actually just tried to find our interaction, and we’re unable to do so.

So we’re going to have to recreate what it was. But the topic that we’re talking about is why writers, especially debut writers, but all writers, so desperately want traditional publishing deals, what that desire is, what that feeling is. And I saw something that Carolyn wrote [00:01:00] on Substack and, and just was like, “This, this.

Why is not everybody talking about this?” So we’re going to talk about this. So welcome.

Caroline: Thank you so much, Jennie. I’m really thrilled to be here, especially because, um, I have your Blueprint for a Book, a nonfiction book that I ordered. I suppose it must have been maybe 10 years ago.

Jennie: Oh my gosh. Well, that was what

Caroline: was- 10...

Would it be 10 years ago?

Jennie: That was what was so... Part of what was so fun was I- Yeah ... I didn’t know who you were, and I responded to this note. And you said, “Oh, I, I know who you are. I have your book.” And, um- Yeah ... and here we are. So that

Caroline: was- And you didn’t know that... Yeah, you didn’t know because I do recommend it a lot.

So I, I... That’s so funny. Um, so it’s a pure coincidence. And I will say that this is... There was like a turning point. Just to go back a little bit, I’ve had a very, very long, uh, trip, uh, circuitous, scenic route to being published. So [00:02:00] my debut novel, The Marriage Vendetta, was published last year by Harper Collins.

But... And it’s about a woman called Eliza, a musician. It’s based on a real-life character. But I have been working on some version of Eliza’s story for- 20 years now at this stage. So it took me more than a decade of actively trying to get published to get my book deal. And there was a pivotal moment where I was brought very low.

It’s like in a novel where you have your dark night of the soul. I had lost my second agent. I had died on submission twice, and I thought, “I cannot keep doing this to myself because I will end up an old lady with a pile of unpublished novels. I either quit now or I do something differently.” And what I did was I was like, “Okay, I’m not giving up.”

I went online, I ordered Story Genius by Lisa Cron, discovered you through that and bought this book, and I bought the Donald Maass book as well. And those three books were the turning points of my whole writing life, [00:03:00] and completely changed how I wrote. And if I hadn’t bought them, I would still be writing those pointless novels, Jennie, so I’m so grateful.

Um-

Jennie: Oh, my gosh. Wow. Yeah. So, so it was Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, and we have to get the name of Donald’s book, ‘cause it’s great and it’s ... I’m blanking on it right now. Um-

Caroline: Yeah, the one that- I’m just- I have a couple, but it was, um, the How To ... I have it here. Yeah, Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook. This one.

Okay. And the funny thing is, Jennie, I mean, last week when you, or the, whenever it was you contacted me, it was just such an exciting moment for me because that was such a pivotal book. But the weird thing is, and I just don’t know how this has happened, it’s like karma, I am now represented by the Donald Maass agency, but I never queried him.

It was completely by accident, and I just think there’s some kind of karma at work. I don’t know. Um,

Jennie: because I

Caroline: haven’t- This is

Jennie: crazy.

Caroline: It’s just gone crazy.

Jennie: It’s crazy. Yeah. It’s ... So more than a dozen years trying to get published, but [00:04:00] you- Yes ... but you write for The Irish Times, is that correct? You’re a journalist.

Caroline: Uh, yeah, so, and this kinda comes back to what I was talking about on Substack. I decided I wanted to be published when I was sort of mid-20s, like as a novelist, but I thought, “I’ll start small. I’ll just start trying to get some, um, some small bits and pieces published. Okay, I’ll try and write some journalism.”

I, I was working as a tax consultant at the time and I wanted to get out of it. And what happened was I did get some articles published, and then it actually turned into a whole career in journalism that went on for a long time, and I wrote for The Irish Times for a long time, all with the aim of getting a novel published.

Jennie: Wow.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: So, um, I, I actually did a, a speed read of The Marriage Vendetta. It’s such a fun- Thank you ... kind of romp of a, a story. It’s- Yeah ... it’s, um, it’s very feminist Thank you. It’s, it’s, um- Yeah ... funny. It’s dark. It’s, [00:05:00] uh, satire. I, I heard some people describe it as domestic thriller. Yeah. Um, so this, this book has come out now, um, well, last year, and you have another coming out next year.

Is-

Caroline: Yeah ... is