Me, on an Australian pod

In this episode, Australian comedian Dan Ilic hosts me on The Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation.

Text transcript:

David Roberts

While I was down under in Australia, I appeared on a show called A Rational Fear, a pod about climate change which is, I’m told, the winner of Australia’s Best Comedy Podcast.

More specifically, I appeared on a spinoff show they’re doing called [ahem] The Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation, a series of interviews with climate types hosted by comedian and journalist Dan Ilic.

It was short, and fun, so I figured, why not share it with the Volts audience? Enjoy, and do check out A Rational Fear some time — it’s quite delightful.

Dan Ilic

I'm recording this on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, and I encourage you all to think about whose land you're on and the wealth of the life that you enjoy on that land and why you enjoy it. As we head into this referendum month, I think it's all upon us all to kind of think about listening more. And if you don't know what the Voice Referendum is all about, go and find out. Let's try listening.

David Roberts

Despite global warming, A Rational Fear is adding a little more hot air with long form discussions with climate leaders, good and bad.

Intro

This is coal, don't be afraid. The — heat waves and drought — Greatest — mass extinction — Moral — we're facing a manmade disaster — Podcast — they're the climate criminals — of Our Generation. All of this with the global warming and that a lot of it's a hoax. The Greatest Moral Podcast of Our Generation. GMPOOG for short.

Dan Ilic

Every now and then, the A Rational Fear podcast turns green. We talk to someone who is super interested and who lives and breathes climate on a podcast I like to call The Greatest Moral Podcast of Our Generation, or GMPOOG for short. And I'm excited for you all to meet our next GMPOOG guest. Since about 2015, I have been following his writing on Vox.com and the Grist, but in more recent years, I've been listening to his podcast and reading along with his newsletter. It is Volts, or rather the presenter and the writer of Volts podcast, David Roberts. Welcome to A Rational Fear.

David Roberts

So glad to be here.

Dan Ilic

Or welcome to The Greatest Moral Podcast of Our Generation.

David Roberts

Yeah, I'm not sure I can keep that acronym in my head.

Dan Ilic

Well, the first guest on The Greatest Moral Podcast of Our Generation was former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, who coined the phrase that climate change was the greatest moral problem of our generation. So that's why we called GMPOOG, GMPOOG. You are one of the foremost experts when it comes to climate and energy. I love Volts. I devour it, I listen as often as I can. And for such a complex and often combative topic, quite frankly, your voice is so calming and reassuring.

David Roberts

Thank you.

Dan Ilic

I mean, you could sell anything, which is why you're here today. To sell us on small modular nuclear reactors.

David Roberts

Exactly. And carbon capture and sequestration. That's my thing.

Dan Ilic

Well, it's such a sprawling conversation I'd love to have with you. Let's start there. We do hear a lot from a very small subsection of our politics all about small modular nuclear reactors. In fact, Barnaby Joyce, who at one time was a leader of a party in this country, said, "People aren't talking about the cost of living down at the supermarket. They're talking about small modular nuclear reactors."

David Roberts

Are they?

Dan Ilic

So I want to ask you, David Roberts, is anybody talking about small modular nuclear reactors?

David Roberts

I mean, yes, people are talking and talking and talking about them. The more relevant question is anyone building small modular nuclear reactors? And the answer to that is a big no. So I think they play more of a rhetorical role than an actual physical role in the energy system.

Dan Ilic

Why is there this energy, for better, no pun intended there, around small modular nuclear reactors? Why is this conversation happening now? Why is there a big drumbeat happening not only in Australia but other countries for it when there are no working models anywhere in the world?

David Roberts

There's two answers to that a cynical answer and a less cynical answer. The cynical answer is if you need something to say about climate policy and the other party has already claimed renewable energy, you need something to talk about, right? You need a climate policy and there's nothing left to grab but nuclear. And you want to claim to have a policy, but in practical terms, delay any actual real solutions. That's the cynical answer. The less cynical answer is renewable energy is variable. It comes and goes with the weather. So you need what's called firming. You need sources that can firm up renewable energy i.e. that you can turn on and off at will. And right now gas is serving that role. And so in a decarbonized system, you need something else to serve that role. So exactly what will serve that firming role, we don't completely know yet. Could be batteries, could be geothermal, could be hydro or small hydro, or it could be SMRs, if they ever come along. There is a role for that kind of thing in the energy system.

Dan Ilic

I'm excited to have you here because you're in the country. It's great to see you face to face because first and foremost, I'm a super fan. But two, we're at a really weird spot right now in Australian politics and global politics when it comes to climate. We're about a year on from the Inflation Reduction Act. We had Rich Duke on this podcast about a year ago when it got announced. How has the IRA been and where is it still lacking?

David Roberts

The headline news is that there have been, I think, around $70 billion of announced new manufacturing facilities and industrial facilities announced in the wake of IRA. So it has unquestionably sparked a huge flood of new investment.

Dan Ilic

Is this because the IRA is like — one of the core tenants is all kind of transport need to be built in America in order to get this government money?

David Roberts

Yes, there's a lot of the buy domestic sort of provisions in it, so everybody's coming to the US. So they can claim that. So that's part of it. And also, I think estimates of US economic growth have been revised upward a couple of times in the wake of IRA. So it has absolutely sparked growth, sparked a huge wave of investment. But in the larger picture, there are still big chunks of IRA that are where the implementation is being hashed out. So we really don't know yet. It really has not come into — all the subsidies for household stuff, demand side stuff, household stuff, your heat pumps, et cetera.

They were just announced. The structure of those tax credits was just — sort of came out last week, so it's too early to tell with those. And things like the green hydrogen subsidies, whic