Show full transcript 1:00 Today, Leila Fottle sits down with Hassan Piker. 1:04 For more newsmakers, you can follow or subscribe to the show on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever 1:08 you watch or listen, and you can find us in the NPR app. 1:13 Hassan Piker is one of the most important political forces among young people today. 1:18 The 35-year-old's commentator does daily live streams on Twitch. 1:22 That's where he calls out the Democratic Party lambast conservatives dissects the 1:26 latest viral memes. 1:27 his unfiltered and at times incendiary style has generated fans and fury. 1:34 Piker has talked a lot recently about his political views, but we wanted to talk to 1:38 him about the backlash against those views, as well as the midterms his audience reach 1:43 and his role in the future of American politics. 1:47 Hasan Piker, welcome to Newsmakers and thanks for being here. 1:51 This is a real honor. This is very exciting. I listen to NPR every morning. 1:56 Oh, you do? 1:57 Yeah. 1:57 And all the time, as a matter of fact. 1:59 So are we on your stream? 2:01 You're also on the stream all the time. 2:03 You're probably on the stream right now. 2:04 By the time this video comes out, I will definitely watch it on stream. 2:08 So I want to get to who you are and why it feels like everyone is talking about you. 2:14 But before I get there, I want to start with a really important Senate race in Michigan. 2:19 You campaigned for Democrat Abdul El Sayed, and you're credited with really 2:24 why he might have won his primary. 2:26 But we've also seen him distancing himself from you lately 2:29 because he's attacked for his association with you. 2:33 Do you think that association could cost him the election? 2:36 No. 2:37 And I don't think the Republicans 2:38 believed that any longer either. 2:41 The Republicans have no idea what to do with themselves. 2:44 Trump is historically unpopular. 2:46 The economy is in shambles. 2:48 He ran on being the peace president. 2:51 He lied about that very clearly. 2:54 And gas prices are far too high. 2:58 Electricity, the energy prices have gone up as well 3:00 because we're subsidizing data centers 3:02 all around the country. 3:03 People are overall very upset 3:06 with how things have panned out, including Trump voters. 3:10 So they can't really lean into Donald Trump. 3:12 Donald Trump is a representative of chaos. 3:16 And so they have to find a new target to attack. 3:20 So I guess they wanted to position 3:22 the Democrats is radical and communist and I guess in some instances Islam is fundamentalist 3:33 and they thought that identifying a random Twitch streamer from California would be a 3:39 really reliable way to do that and really successful way to do that. And they weren't shy 3:43 about this either. There was plenty of reporting leading up to the unorthodox Republican 3:49 and midterm convention that took place, 3:53 where this is what they openly said 3:55 that this is what they would do. 3:57 Well, you were mentioned at that convention prominently. 4:01 The problem is, most people don't know who I am. 4:06 And even if they do know who I am, 4:08 and even if they have a negative association 4:11 with my worldview, because they've seen these attack ads 4:16 or they've seen the media coverage, 4:20 connecting me back to a campaign is very difficult. 4:27 And that's precisely the reason why it's been a failure. 4:29 And there's been polling on this. 4:31 But what do you mean connecting me back to a campaign? 4:33 Because you have campaigned for different candidates 4:35 that you believe in. 4:36 At the end of the day, I'm a Twitch streamer. 4:38 I hold no political office. 4:40 I have no real political power. 4:42 So getting people to be upset at a Twitch streamer 4:47 and their affiliation as if you want to call it a surrogate 4:51 in the primary is going to be very difficult, 4:55 especially when there are real crises 4:57 going on in the country. 5:05 Stay tuned for the following announcements 5:06 and messages from our sponsors. 5:09 This message comes from Dell. 5:11 Shop now during the Dell Top Tech event 5:13 and find award-winning tech like the Dell XPS 13 laptop 5:17 with long-lasting battery life and impressive performance 5:20 It's powered by Intel Core processors. 5:23 Visit Dell.com slash deals. 5:26 This message comes from Prolon. 5:28 Want to look and feel your best this fall? 5:30 Prolon's five-day fasting mimicking diet 5:33 is a clinically developed nutrition program 5:35 with the goal of promoting fat loss 5:36 while protecting lean body mass. 5:38 Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, 5:41 it aims to assist the body in entering a fasting-like state 5:44 that helps reset metabolism, target visceral fat, 5:47 and support healthy metabolic markers. 5:48 Get 15% off plus a bonus gift when you subscribe at ProLonLife.com slash NPR. 5:55 This message comes from AT&T. 5:58 Right now at AT&T, you can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with eligible trade-in. 6:04 It has the ultimate pro camera system and a big leap in battery life, so you can turn 6:08 this deal into a long-lasting connection. 6:10 Connecting changes everything. 6:12 Requires trade-in of $230 or more and eligible plan, terms and restrictions apply, subject 6:17 to change. 6:17 visit an AT&T store for details. 6:21 Do you think you give the Republicans ammunition to use, 6:26 to use you as a cudgel for the Democratic Party? 6:29 I think guilt by association politics is not as successful 6:32 as people think they are. 6:36 Republicans have had rival browsers and firebrands 6:39 that have played a formative role in galvanizing their base 6:43 for the last couple of decades. 6:46 Democrats sometimes used to stress that association as a way to campaign. But I 6:53 think even Democrats understood that it's largely ineffective and they've stopped 6:57 doing it. A lot of people try to make this comparison between myself and 7:03 Nick Fuentes, for example. I find that comparison to be disgusting. He's a known anti-Semitic. 7:09 Neo-Nazi who was participant of January 6th as well. And I think a closer comparison would 7:17 probably be to someone like Charlie Kirk, who's also operated as a campaign surrogate at times 7:22 or fundraised for candidates. And I've never heard a Democrat even make that association 7:28 a problem for any particular candidate. And not only that, but also there certainly wouldn't 7:36 be a lot of Republicans who would criticize other Republicans for 7:39 affiliating with Charlie Kirk. Does Abdul say it's still, do you still talk to him? 7:43 Do you still, are you still involved in any way in the campaign? I'm not involved 7:47 in any way in the campaign and I technically have never been involved in 7:50 any way in the campaign. I did two campaign stops at two different 7:54 universities early on with Abdul Al-Sayed and this you know caused quite 7:58 the controversy but outside of that my my support for Abdul Al-Sayed is my 8:06 My support is an American citizen. 8:07 As an American citizen, a public figure who has a lot of fans, specifically under the 8:13 age of 45, all around the country, but especially in Michigan as well. 8:18 And that's always been the case. 8:19 But there's been reporting that he actually has called you and said, don't talk about 8:23 me on the stream. 8:24 Is that true? 8:25 No. 8:26 He's not told me to stop talking about him on stream. 8:30 If that were the case, I'd be doing a very bad job. 8:33 Because I saw you were talking about the course and he's yes, and this is a 8:39 nationally significant 8:40 Race is a very significant race the the Democrat Senate majority 8:46 Hinges on this race in some respects and this and many others certainly, but it's one of them 8:52 And I'm a political commentator. Of course. I'm going to talk about these races, right? It's 8:59 So, no, that's not, that has not been a conversation. 9:04 Now, you have a very large following, 9:07 millions of people listen to your stream, 9:09 but also a lot of Americans have no idea who you are. 9:12 You, between August and September, 9:14 you were mentioned nearly 2,000 times on broadcast TV news. 9:18 About half of that on Fox News. 9:20 But most, as I said, 9:22 Americans don't actually watch your Twitch. 9:24 And so for them, you kind of came out of nowhere. 9:27 You're suddenly mentioned everywhere. You're in campaign ads. Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime 9:31 Minister of Israel, is mentioning you on the floor of the United Nations General Assembly. 9:35 The president talks about you. So who is the Hasan Piker that's portrayed in all of these ads 9:42 and spoken about? And who is the Hasan Piker that you see yourself as? Describe that gap. Who 9:48 are you? I mean, there's a massive gap. I think the way that I'm portrayed is unbelievably 9:53 negatively negative, which is expected, especially because they're treating me like I'm a politician 9:59 or someone who's actually campaigning when I'm not. 10:03 The problem there is when political attack ads take shape on the campaign trail, the 10:12 candidates themselves also have these massive coffers to re-identify themselves. 10:17 I don't have that. 10:18 I have no institutional backing. 10:19 thinking. I have no mainstream media allies, as a matter of fact, even on the liberal side. 10:26 There are plenty of consultants in Washington D.C. who also despise me, so they're heavily 10:31 leaning into these attack ads as well, because I think they're seeing this as a factional 10:35 battle that's taking place within the Democratic Party right now. They have propped me up 10:40 as a figurehead of this insurgent left movement, and I'll admit I've certainly 10:46 played a role in in being propped up into this position as well. I mean, I've campaigned with 10:51 all of the insurgent left candidates all around the country, fundraised for them, and you know, 10:57 phone bank for them, doorknock for them. So there's certainly a little bit of legitimacy to that. 11:03 Having said that, the way that I'm portrayed in the media is an America-hating communist, 11:12 Islamist fundamentalist who wants to secretly do jihad and then also at the 11:17 same time very woke and gay. So there's this weird inconsistency in their 11:22 messaging. I don't fully understand it but who I am is very simple. I'm a 11:26 socialist. I'm an anti-imperialist. I want what's best for Americans and I 11:31 want what's best for everyone around the world. I feel like we live in the 11:34 wealthiest nation on the planet and I find it unconscionable that there 11:39 There are 600,000 people who go to sleep outside every single night. 11:44 I find it unconscionable that we do not have a public healthcare system in this country. 11:53 We certainly have enough money to pay for it. 11:55 I find it morally repugnant that we use so much of our productive output, so much of 12:03 our resources on waging wars overseas, ceaseless, endless and very bloody wars 12:08 overseas destabilizing the entire world instead of using all of that wealth and using all 12:13 those resources on ourselves. Simply put, that's what I believe. That's what I've been 12:17 advocating for for the last decade. I try to actively de-radicalize people that are 12:24 on the far right. I've seen a lot of success in that field. I try to talk to people 12:30 that are in the margins of, you know, transphobia, homophobia, anti-black racism, 12:34 them and pulled them back and tried to explain to them that these reactionary ideas might 12:41 come across as appealing, but they're actually distractions at the end of the day. 12:46 And again, seen a lot of great success there as well. 12:49 This outlet, alongside many of the mainstream outlets, including those who now attack me, 12:55 wrote extensively about what I have been doing for the past decade or so, talking 13:01 about how I was capable of converting young men 13:05 and bringing them back into the left. 13:07 because the first time you really came on scene nationally, 13:09 it was probably in the spring, 13:12 and you were really spoken about as like, 13:14 is he the Joe Rogan of the left? 13:16 Can he appeal to the young men 13:18 that Democrats just cannot appeal to? 13:20 And that really has morphed now to, 13:23 is he a liability, 13:25 somebody that Democrats must disavow? 13:28 How did that narrative shift? 13:30 Well, Joe Rogan was the Joe Rogan of the left at some point, right? 13:35 And he also became a liability in the eyes of the Democrats. 13:39 And there's obviously good reason for that. 13:42 Having said that, with my experience, it's pretty simple. 13:49 I said it even back then, when people were looking for a Joe Rogan of the left. 13:55 You can't podcast your way out of this problem. 13:58 The problems are with the party. The problems are with a lack of clear, 14:04 definable policies that the party represents at the national level. This is 14:08 a real issue and we haven't been able to solve this crisis for the Democrats 14:12 and that's part of the reason why the Democrats are still largely very 14:15 unpopular, even though Trump is the least popular political figure, perhaps 14:19 in history. Yeah, the part is, yeah, as you point out, not polling. Yeah. So 14:24 So, that's still an ever-present issue. 14:27 And the other thing I always brought up was that I'm an independent media figure that 14:33 is also not a party apparancic in the way that, for example, Charlie Kirk was, in the 14:38 way that many Republican commentators are and will continue to be. 14:44 They serve the interests of the Republican Party. 14:47 I do not serve the interests of the Democratic Party. 14:50 I have my own opinions. 14:51 I have my own goals. 14:52 I have my own political ideology and I have policies that I want to see get 14:57 implemented and I'm always going to push for that. This is a major issue for the 15:02 Democrats because when they said they were looking for their own Joe Rogan of 15:05 the left, what they meant was someone who will unconditionally and 15:10 vociferously support all Democrats across the board that will maybe even 15:15 at times dial back on their criticisms of Democrats when it's 15:18 worthy and that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what I do and what I 15:23 always have sought out to do. You do say incendiary things. You've described 15:30 some of the things that you say as vulgar. You also describe yourself as a 15:35 one-man media empire. You do have a huge platform. I wouldn't say empire. I've heard 15:40 you say that. One-man media platform. Okay, fine. One-man media platform. So 15:47 some of these broadcast networks, just yourself. 15:50 Do you feel a responsibility maybe to dial back 15:54 some of that language, especially language that you've 15:56 in the past been like, I shouldn't have said it that way. 15:58 I shouldn't have, maybe I shouldn't have talked about, 16:01 I mean, I think of like Rick Scott, 16:03 he one time said, well, maybe he should be killed 16:04 over Medicaid fraud. 16:05 I don't remember the exact wording, but- 16:07 I said if Republicans cared about actual Medicare fraud, 16:10 they would apply capital punishment to Rick Scott 16:14 is what I should have said, 16:15 that would have probably been a little bit better. 16:16 But it wasn't it wasn't about like an assassination attempt at Rick Scott more so 16:20 trying to identify the hypocrisy with what Mike Johnson was saying at the time, which is 16:27 That they were invested in in tackling Medicare fraud, but they were just simply trying to cut Medicare 16:33 What I'm trying to ask you here is when you look back at these this wording 16:38 However, it's meant it is being broadcast to millions of people. Do you think about not saying incendiary things? 16:44 Yes. I think about not saying incendiary things all the time. I think the issue here is the medium. 16:54 Most people don't understand what Twitch streaming is, but simply put, I'm providing extemporaneous commentary 17:02 on hot button issues in a very contentious environment where there's a lot of back-and-forth 17:07 communication with anonymous chatters, anonymous users that can be tuning in from all around the world 17:12 in real time for eight hours a day. 17:17 This of course creates tremendous liability 17:21 but most people don't understand the medium or the format 17:24 and therefore they look at these negatively framed clips 17:29 out of context clips and sometimes clips 17:32 that are in context where I'm engaging hyperbole, 17:36 joking or even deploying a metaphor 17:41 and they think that this is a pre-planned pre-produced segment where I decided to 17:50 say this, say this thing that they're now seeing in the in the most negative lens 17:55 possible. That's a big chunk of the the that's where a big chunk of the problems 18:02 come from. There is no other way to actually live broadcast real-time news 18:11 analysis and commentary without some friction. Having said that, I am very 18:17 careful. I know it sounds crazy to say. Are you? Yes, I am. Because again, remember, 18:23 think about what it means to speak for 21,000 hours about politics every 18:30 single day, for eight hours a day, every single thought that you've ever had is live broadcasted 18:37 to an entire arena full of people. 18:41 Some of those people are tuning in with the express purpose of trying to get a rise out 18:45 of you so they can clip it and then post it on the internet. 18:49 This is the media environment that I grew up in. 18:54 This is the media environment that I developed my platform. 19:00 I think it's shocking that there's only a handful of clips that people deploy. 19:06 So you've spoken about 21,000 hours that you're speaking and being clipped out, but you still 19:12 say the things that you say. 19:14 Are you just making excuses for that language? 19:18 No, I'm not. 19:19 I'm just trying to explain to people that it is virtually impossible to be 19:27 perfect in this medium because most people are just unaware and they 19:35 shouldn't be aware of this medium at all it's twitch I understand it it's it 19:38 supposed to be a gaming platform it's a very lucrative and now powerful place 19:42 that you're yeah and I and you should hear what some other people are saying 19:47 on the platform or don't. It's probably better for everyone's sanity that they don't do that. But 19:54 it's not an excuse. I understand. And I'm very aware of how the language I use can get interpreted. 20:03 But the reason why I describe this over and over again is because I need people to understand 20:07 this is something that Joe Rogan, ironically enough, back when I was a fan many, many years 20:12 ago, like more than a decade ago, would talk about quite a bit, where he was this trailblazer, 20:18 this pioneer in podcasting at a time when people didn't fully understand what podcasting was. 20:24 And the format of having a three hour peer to peer conversation was unique at the time. 20:30 It just didn't really happen. But that format, albeit new, created tremendous 20:37 opportunities for out of context clipping. And people would get clipped out of context all the 20:42 time in these, you know, back and forth conversations. And I remember Joe Rogan constantly complaining 20:48 about this even back then. Now, having said that his worldview has shifted dramatically 20:54 in the last decade or so. And I certainly stopped being as big as a fan as I was around, 21:01 I would say, 2015, 2016, when he started having a bunch of white supremacists on his 21:05 broadcast and offering them favorable interviews. Having said that, it stuck with me that it 21:14 was more so the medium that was creating these interesting media opportunities, a medium 21:21 that a lot of people didn't fully understand at the time. And nowadays, I think when you 21:25 say, oh, this is an out of context clip, most people get it. Most people recognize 21:30 it for what it is, especially if it's on a podcast. So I think these are the growing pains of Twitch 21:36 as a platform being so new. Are the things you regret saying? All the time. And I'm sure that 21:43 there will be things that I regret saying in the future as well. Do you think that the statements 21:49 you make as a streamer are the sole reason that they cause such controversy or that you make 21:57 them while being named Hassan. I absolutely do think that a big part of the problem is that yes 22:04 my name is Hassan. I'm you know I'm a Turkish American dual citizen. I grew up in Turkey as well 22:12 and you know I was born here in the United States of America but I grew up in Turkey 22:16 and I think there is this constant need to otherize people 22:24 that Republicans engage in and maybe even sometimes liberals fall for as well, and that is certainly 22:32 an element of it. Of course, I say incendiary things, but it's not reflected on in the same way 22:40 when someone who's white, Christian, born and raised in America is saying incendiary things. 22:49 As somebody who knows what it's like to feel dehumanized for your ethnic 22:55 background, for your, I know you're not religious, but being from a Muslim 22:59 background, when you hear people say why would you use dehumanizing language 23:05 like inbred for some ultra orthodox Jews or Zionist pig, what do you say to them 23:10 as somebody who has felt that as well? So great question. I have a policy to 23:17 be ruthless to those who are bullying others, to be ruthless to those who abide by certain 23:24 ideologies that are conducting great harm. As far as the language that I deploy that 23:31 is considered dehumanizing like inbred, it's one that I use quite commonly as a pejorative 23:39 because as a pejorative towards right-wing reactionary ideology, ethno-supremacist 23:46 ideology, neo-Nazi ideology, because I find it to be an apt pejorative to 23:55 deploy considering that these supremacist ideologies oftentimes revolve 24:00 around ethnic purity, racial purity. It's not, of course, not meant to be 24:06 taken seriously. Having said that, that is the reason why I deploy this pejorative 24:13 unconditionally across the board. And same with, you know, calling someone a pig. 24:19 It's, it gets heated at times, you know? I'm a passionate guy, I get angry. I have 24:24 to, you know, explain my frustration, communicate my frustration somehow. 24:30 Very different format that we have here, obviously. But, you know, I think 24:34 that a lot of people feel this way a lot of people get very frustrated and it's 24:40 never directed at someone for their actual background it's usually the 24:47 actions or their belief system and oftentimes and almost all the time it's 24:54 their reactionary belief system that causes me to call them a pig or 24:59 inbred or something like that. 25:02 There's another very online person, Tucker Carlson, 25:05 who you couldn't be more different politically, right? 25:08 Yeah, oh yeah. 25:10 But you do come to the same conclusions on certain issues 25:13 when it comes to Israel, Palestine, 25:16 the continued killings in Gaza. 25:18 Make that make sense for me. 25:20 How do you guys agree on a lot of US foreign policy 25:24 issues, and yet you're completely different politically? 25:29 Yeah. I think about that a lot. And, you know, I obviously, I'm still very critical of Tucker 25:36 Carlson because I find his worldview to be not dissimilar to the ideology that he criticizes 25:45 in Israel. Zionism being an ethno-supremacist, religious supremacist ideology that seeks 25:51 out the extermination. Yes, that's how I see it. 25:54 Not everyone sees it that way. 25:55 No, I understand. I think many people are coming to see it that way, including former 26:03 Zionist scholars like Omar Bartoff, but having said that... 26:06 I mean, I will point out the polling shows that the majority of Americans right now hold 26:10 that negative view of Israel and its government, Israel's government right now. 26:15 But the point I was trying to make is that the Tucker Carlson's of the world on the 26:19 one hand will criticize the actions of Israel, but then also simultaneously want to turn America 26:25 into Israel but for Christian nationalists or for wasps, right? 26:29 And that I find to be very frustrating. 26:31 I'm an anti-fascist. 26:33 That is the reason why I oppose Israel. 26:35 I did not oppose Israel because it's the quote-unquote Jewish state or that the violence 26:41 is being conducted against Muslims and Christians in the hands of Jews. 26:46 That's not my analysis at all. 26:48 that's not even secondary in this conversation. 26:52 I'm against the violence altogether. 26:54 So when I see someone like Tucker Carlson 26:57 make an incredibly convincing case 27:01 who identifies the atrocities, 27:03 calls it out for what it is, 27:05 but then also turn around and talk about 27:07 the great replacement about how whites 27:09 are being replaced in the United States of America 27:10 by way of immigration a week after that. 27:14 I find that fascinating, 27:17 But it's certainly a cause for concern, at least on my end. 27:21 So as far as Tucker Carlson's analysis of Israel, do I believe that he legitimately has 27:30 seen this bloodshed and finds it to be horrifying? 27:37 When you hear him, he's very convincing. 27:40 So it's tough not to assume that there is there it's tough to assume that that he's being insincere 27:47 on that issue 27:50 Having said that 27:52 If I were to be super cynical about his ambitions 27:57 I would assume that the reason why he's doing this because he understands that there's a sea change happening 28:02 He's reading the tea leaves among the American public among the American public and and even amongst the 28:08 Republicans as well, especially in the next generation of Republicans, and he wants to 28:12 get ahead of that wave shift, and he wants to, at the very least, lend credibility as 28:18 an isolationist anti-war Republican and play a role in a broad coalition that will need 28:24 to form in the post-Trump universe, in the post-Trump calculus. 28:29 What are your ambitions? 28:30 I mean, you have this platform. 28:32 You're quite famous right now, infamous among some. 28:36 What are your ambitions? 28:40 My ambitions have always been the same. 28:42 I just, I want to make life a little bit easier 28:47 for everyone in the United States of America 28:50 to the best of my ability to build systems 28:52 that will allow that to happen, 28:53 to give American workers some dignity 28:56 and some autonomy in their workplace. 28:59 And there are numerous routes that we take 29:03 in the pursuit of this goal of this shared agenda, 29:07 electoralism is simply one route 29:09 that I'm focusing on currently 29:11 because the elections are happening currently. 29:13 But there are ongoing issues that have, 29:19 and wounds that have yet to be healed 29:21 in American society, broadly speaking. 29:24 And I want everyone to take note of that 29:29 to develop an awareness around these issues and to demand solutions to these problems 29:37 from their elected representatives and hopefully make the necessary changes we want to see. 29:49 Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. 29:53 This message comes from Dell. 29:55 Shop now during the Dell Top Tech event and find award-winning tech like the Dell 30:00 XPS 13 laptop with long-lasting battery life and impressive performance powered by Intel 30:06 Core processors. Visit dell.com slash deals. 30:10 This message comes from Prolon. Want to look and feel your best this fall? Prolon's five-day 30:16 fasting mimicking diet is a clinically developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting 30:20 fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, 30:25 It aims to assist the body in entering a fasting-like state that helps reset metabolism, target visceral 30:30 fat, and support healthy metabolic markers. 30:33 Get 15% off plus a bonus gift when you subscribe at ProLonLife.com slash NPR. 30:40 This message comes from AT&T. 30:42 Right now at AT&T, you can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with eligible trade-in. 30:48 It has the ultimate pro camera system and a big leap in battery life, so you can 30:52 turn this deal into a long-lasting connection. Connecting changes everything. 30:56 Requires trade-in of $230 or more and eligible plan. Terms and restrictions 31:00 apply. Subject to change. Visit an AT&T store for details. Your world view has 31:07 gotten you barred from travel in the UK at least when you tried to go for a 31:11 speaking engagement there. You've been questioned upon return to the United 31:15 States at the border. College campuses debate whether they should have you 31:19 on their campuses, is the price you pay for your ideas and your stances, has it gotten 31:25 too high? 31:27 I think that there is no price too high to pay as long as I'm allowed to say the truth. 31:36 I believe that I'm fighting for truth and justice, and no matter what happens, I'm 31:43 going to continue that pursuit. 31:44 There is no price that's too high to pay, because at the end of the day... 31:49 What about your safety? I mean, do you feel safe? No, I don't know. Of course not. I get death 31:55 threats all the time. University of Texas, Austin invited me to speak. The college Democrats 32:01 invited me to speak on campus and they were people were putting out the the schematics of 32:07 blueprints of the of the different locations that I was supposed to be speaking at and I 32:12 see different locations because the college actually changed the venue on numerous occasions 32:17 Refuse to give us the the large enough venue to accommodate the 3,000 people that had RSVP'd for that so many people 32:25 Yeah, how many people ended up coming like 300 plus almost 400 and and the only reason why 32:32 The number at the end of the day was 400 because they also cut off the line 32:37 Because you know there's metal detectors and we had a limited amount of time in the 32:41 Auditorium that they gave us so the police actually had to cut the line while people were still waiting to get in 32:47 Have you changed the way you live because of that? 32:50 No, I try to never let fear motivate me in any way, shape, or form, 32:56 and never let these threats change what I'm going to do 32:59 and what I'm going to say. 33:01 You spoke about getting into streaming because out of loneliness 33:06 during COVID that you built a community online and now you have these millions of followers, 33:14 but I wonder if that thing that you were trying to solve, 33:19 if you're back in that place of loneliness 33:21 given the scrutiny of you and everything you say. 33:26 No, I certainly don't feel lonely any longer. 33:31 Look, I didn't start Twitch streaming 33:35 because I felt lonely. 33:36 I started Twitch streaming because I wanted to, 33:38 I knew that this gaming sphere 33:41 that I was a part of as a fan had a diverse array of ideologies represented 33:46 and yet amongst the commentary sphere it was all right-wing. So the gamers are 33:52 diverse but the people that were doing political commentary that was like 33:57 gaming adjacent were all right-wing. I also wanted to have a media entity 34:04 of my own because I was working for the Young Turks at the time. My uncles 34:08 you know, startup YouTube news channel, 34:13 and I wanted a place to call my own. 34:17 And that's why I started. 34:19 And I also wanted to be able to get better 34:20 at off-the-cuff commentary, 34:22 because at the time, everything I was doing was scripted 34:25 and pre-produced, I was producing everything. 34:27 And I just wanted to get better at being able 34:30 to speak off-the-cuff on political issues. 34:32 So I saw it as a training ground as well. 34:35 Well, when COVID happened, that's when I was trapped at home, 34:42 just as many others were. 34:44 And that's when I definitely leaned into Twitch streaming 34:48 as a way to reach out to the outside world. 34:52 But I think that's what a lot of people 34:53 in my generation and younger did at the time. 34:56 Everyone was looking for a sense of community. 34:58 And I recognized the responsibility 35:00 in that at the time as well. 35:02 and I wanted to make sure that this community, 35:05 that we were cultivating fostered healthy attitudes overall. 35:10 So I would work out on stream, for example, 35:12 and urge others to do the same at the same time. 35:17 Now, as far as a feeling of loneliness now, 35:21 I do not feel politically isolated at all. 35:25 Look. 35:25 Even with people kind of distancing themselves. 35:28 No, not even a little bit, and here's why. 35:31 I'm a socialist, I'm an anti-imperialist, and I've been doing this for the last 13 years. 35:38 And 13 years ago, we were in a dramatically worse position overall in this movement broadly. 35:46 There are now self-identifying socialists running for office and winning. 35:52 One of the most popular political figures in the country right now is the mayor of 35:56 these beautiful cities, Aramamdani, someone who I was fortunate enough to be able 36:00 meet early on and even play somewhat of a small role, but a role nonetheless in his, you know, primary 36:07 campaign as well. And he is an anti-Zionist, Muslim, socialist mayor of New York City, and not only is 36:17 he a good mayor, he's also a very popular political figure, the most popular political figure in 36:22 New York. I'd say that our movement is growing every single day. So this is the least lonely 36:29 they have ever felt. 36:31 You mentioned a few times that you're an anti-imperialist, and you're very critical of U.S. foreign policy 36:36 and the ills that it has caused in the world, but your critics will say you don't level 36:43 the same scrutiny for countries like Iran, China, which also have imperialist, our 36:50 imperialist powers have those ambitions. 36:53 What would you say to that? 36:55 I'd say that they're wrong. 36:56 I mean, I criticize foreign adversaries and foreign allies alike all the time, but of 37:03 course, my criticism is broadly going to feature American foreign policy because I'm an American. 37:09 And it's twofold, actually. 37:13 It's one, because I'm an American taxpayer, and I feel like there's a moral culpability 37:18 to the destabilizing actions that we commit all around the world. 37:22 world. And then also America is the hegemonic superpower, so it has its hands in every pie 37:30 all around the world. There isn't anything that goes on in a foreign country that America 37:37 isn't at least observing or maybe quietly interfering in. And of course, this is the 37:43 reason why I cover American intervention 37:47 and American ambitions far more than I do, 37:52 let's say, you know, what China is doing. 37:55 I mean, I've done coverage on China's foreign policy 37:58 in Myanmar, for example, right? 38:01 China has a very, I mean, I'm very critical 38:03 of Chinese foreign policy, actually. 38:05 I think that their attitude is very laissez-faire 38:11 as far as like letting other countries 38:14 that are committing atrocities continue to do so 38:17 as long as they're able to continue doing trade with them, 38:20 they don't really care. 38:21 And China commits its own atrocities. 38:22 Yes, and of course, as every great power does, right? 38:27 Around the world to varying degrees. 38:30 And I'm critical of that as well. 38:33 But I think the reason why a lot of people 38:35 get frustrated about this, 38:36 or even make this accusation, 38:37 is because they don't want to think about what we are doing. 38:43 And it's almost a self-soothing behavior. 38:46 It offers a sense of comfort when we think about other countries doing things that America 38:51 does all the time. 38:52 I've seen this, at least in my own experience, because I was, of course, incredibly critical 38:57 of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 39:00 And I have been railing against Vladimir Putin, he's a kleptocrat, even though a 39:05 lot of people think that Russia is a communist country still it's very funny 39:08 it's not he's a vulgar ethno-nationalist I oppose his world view I oppose his 39:16 actions and yet every time in my experience every time I would say you 39:21 know Russia is behaving quite a bit like America here Americans would get mad 39:25 and I think people would take that badly yeah people people get very 39:29 frustrated not understanding like that that is not a justification I'm not 39:33 actually offering a justification to Russian actions. I'm actually very critical of Russian 39:38 actions at that moment. I'm saying that, like, this is irredentist behavior. 39:43 By comparing it to the U.S., that they're as bad as the U.S., so some Americans will 39:48 hear that and say, you hate America. Yes, but I don't. I love America. If I didn't 39:54 love this country, I wouldn't be here. I think loving a country also requires one 40:02 to be very sincere and very direct with its criticisms. America holds tremendous promise. 40:12 So I'm even more critical of America for that reason. The fact that we have so much power 40:18 and we're squandering it, or rather using it for the interests of a tiny sliver of the population 40:30 that has been able to develop immense power 40:33 and consolidate tremendous amounts of wealth. 40:36 I find that to be abhorrent. 40:38 I want to change that system. 40:40 I want to help everyone. 40:41 Going back to your audience, mostly men, 40:45 mostly white men, right? 40:48 And men are falling behind in education, 40:50 economic stability, mental health. 40:51 They have higher rates of loneliness. 40:54 Why do you think that isn't, 40:56 and what happens if that continues? 41:00 That's a tough one to answer. 41:03 I think that by and large there was historically a path for young men, a lot of young white 41:13 men as well, to go to high school and have an opportunity for upward social mobility 41:20 by getting a regular job, maybe in the trades. 41:24 and that pathway is closing for many young men in this country and they find
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