In this episode, we speak with Dave Chapman, co-founder of the Real Organic Project , about the political and ecological crossroads facing the organic food movement. Dave reflects on the industrial takeover of the USDA organic label and why he believes decentralization—not scaling—is key to meaningful change. The conversation explores the deep ties between soil health, human health, and corporate power, questioning whether collapse is necessary for real transformation. Dave also shares insights from past guests on climate, culture, and the true meaning of sustainability. The episode wraps with a rapid-fire Q&A, touching on books, bread, and the surprising food that might just help us trust our taste buds again. Sponsors Tessier : Use promo code MGI10 for 10% off and free shipping on your first purchase for the Eastern North American regions. Farmhand : CSA farmers can set up a complimentary 1:1 strategy session with founder Ari. BelSerre: Contact Belserre at 819-816-4620 to discuss your next project. Servicing Quebec & Ontario. Johnny’s Selected Seeds: Sign up for Johnny’s newsletter to receive the latest news, products, and more. New members get $10 off their next order of $50 or more! Timestamps [0:00] Intro [3:09] The origins of the Real Organic Project [11:37] Why revisit the 1970s counterculture today? [23:12] Politics enters the food conversation [33:45] Human health and the need for real food [50:28] Decentralization as the key to food system change [1:04:12] Origins of organic and how it became political [1:40:09] Nutritional dark matter and industrial farming [1:52:11] Environmental health and climate impacts [2:00:06] Gluten, gut health, and heritage grains [2:03:00] Agriculture as a social and cultural movement [2:07:10] Rapid fire Q&A and closing reflections Links/Resources Market Gardener Institute: https://themarketgardener.com Masterclass: https://themarketgardener.com/courses/the-market-gardener-masterclass Newsletter: https://themarketgardener.com/newsletter Blog: https://themarketgardener.com/blog Books: https://themarketgardener.com/books Growers & Co: https://growers.co Heirloom: https://heirloom.ag/ The Old Mill: https://www.espaceoldmill.com/en/ Follow Us Website: http://themarketgardener.com Facebook: http://facebook.com/marketgardenerinstitute Instagram: http://instagram.com/themarketgardeners Website Podcast Instagram Facebook Youtube JM: Instagram Facebook
