Why pop songwriters break the rules (ft. Amy Allen)

Grammy-winning songwriter Amy Allen joins NYU Steinhardt students live to trace her path from early pitch songs to co-writing some of the decade's defining hits. She explains why Halsey's "Without Me" needed an extended chorus but no pre-made chord loops, how Harry Styles' "Matilda" required character-driven writing for emotional safety, and what made the hypnotic groove of Tate McRae's "Greedy" demand a rare third verse. Allen also unpacks the spoken hook in Rosé and Bruno Mars' "APT" and the three-step key change powering Sabrina Carpenter's recent work. The result is a masterclass in why songs work—and why the rules worth breaking are the ones you've already learned. SONGS DISCUSSED Halsey "Without Me" Harry Styles "Adore You" Harry Styles "Matilda" Tate McRae "greedy" Rosé and Bruno Mars "ATA" Sabrina Carpenter "Please, please, please" Selena Gomez "Back to You" Justin Timberlake "Cry Me A River" (Interpolated in "Without Me") Olivia Rodrigo "Driver's License" Sabrina Carpenter "Espresso" Sabrina Carpenter Short and Sweet (Album) Sabrina Carpenter Man's Best Friend (Album) Beyoncé "Love on Top" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices