Show full transcript 0:28 for more details. 0:30 Your home changes over time. 0:32 The kitchen gets louder, the mornings get busier, 0:35 and suddenly you're wondering, is it time for more space? 0:38 A better layout. 0:39 Somewhere close to great schools or near the sea. 0:42 On daft.ie you'll find stunning family homes for sale across South Dublin. 0:47 From Blackrock to Foxrock, Dundrum to Doki. 0:49 So when you're ready for the next chapter, 0:51 start with Ireland's number one property platform, daft.ie. 0:55 Kurt Cobain, the leader of one of Iraq's most gifted and promising bands, Nirvana, is 1:01 dead. 32 years ago on April 8, 1994, an electrician walked into the greenhouse above the garage 1:08 of a Seattle home to install security lights and found Kurt Cobain dead. A shotgun on 1:15 his chest, a suicide note with a pen stuck through it, a gunshot wound to the head. 1:20 The medical examiner called it suicide and for three decades, that was the end 1:24 of the story, so you don't believe that it was suicide? 1:27 No, absolutely not. 1:28 The questions never went away, 1:30 and now a team of forensic experts 1:32 organized and funded by Michelle Wilkins, 1:34 a Nirvana fan-turned-investigator, 1:36 says they have the receipts. 1:38 Someone on a message board said 1:39 there was a witness to Kurt's death. 1:41 He is an active user. 1:43 We're afraid he might pass away 1:44 without having his statement recorded. 1:46 Hi, my name is Joseph Burns. 1:48 He told us what, in his opinion, 1:50 happened to Kurt the night he died. 1:52 Kurt Cobain was murdered. 1:53 So I have this guy saying hey, he was murdered and here's what happened, but the police didn't care 1:58 They didn't want to see it because they said the case is closed. We don't care a peer-reviewed analysis of the autopsy and the crime 2:05 Scene argues Cobain was incapacitated by a heroin overdose before the shotgun was ever fired 2:11 This is a quote from detective Zizinski who reviewed the file in 2:15 2014 he had more heroin in his system than they had ever seen in King County 2:20 They want you to believe he goes and he shoots up, pushes the kid away, pulls his 2:24 sleeves down, buttons his sleeves, and then uses a five-foot shotgun that weighs 2:29 seven pounds while he's dying, suffocating on heroin. We tested the 2:33 shotgun. What did the suicide note say? So we had that analyzed by a handwriting 2:37 analyst and he said, Michelle, in 50 years I've never seen this before. They've 2:41 taken it all to the Seattle police who still say suicide. I'm sitting down 2:46 today with Michelle Wilkins to walk through every piece of it and whether 2:49 Whether you're a Nirvana fan or you've never followed this story for a day in your life, 2:53 I think you're going to find this fascinating. 2:55 It may just change your mind about everything you thought was true. 2:59 What does success look like to you? 3:00 What are you looking for or hoping for? 3:02 We're not saying like go in and like declare it a homicide. 3:05 We want the case reopened and the police to do the job that they should have done 3:09 in 94. 3:09 You may walk away asking the same question she is. 3:13 Who killed Kurt Cobain? 3:15 The person who did Kurt's autopsy used to sleep with Courtney. 3:26 Before we get started, I wanted to let you in on a little secret. 3:30 What you're about to hear is only part of the conversation. 3:33 Every week, we keep talking over on Patreon 3:35 where you'll find exclusive bonus episodes behind the scenes footage 3:39 after show conversations with my guests 3:41 and personal stories from my life that I don't share anywhere else. 3:45 If you love misunderstood, 3:46 Stood. Patreon is where you'll get the full experience. Just head on over to patreon.com 3:52 slash misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel or click the link in the show notes. I'd love to have you 3:58 join us. At AIB, we build banking that's built for real life, built for the everyday things 4:04 you need to get done and the bigger things life throws your way. Now, the new AIB app brings 4:09 more of your everyday banking together in one place, making it easier to manage your money 4:14 wherever you are. And when you need more than an app, our people are there too. Call into a branch 4:19 or call us on the phone. However life happens, AIB is built to help you keep moving. AIB for the 4:25 life you're after. Alarash Bank's PLC is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. 4:59 Michelle, thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood. I'm so excited to have 5:03 you here. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm a huge fan of your podcast. So thank 5:08 you. Oh, I love that. I really appreciate that. Okay, so let's get right into this. So 5:12 So for someone who knows nothing about Kurt Cobain, can you explain who was he and why 5:19 does his death still matter so much? 5:21 Absolutely. 5:23 Kurt Cobain was in a sort of grunge punk band in the 90s called Nirvana. 5:28 Their breakout signal single was Smells Like Teen Spirit. 5:32 And it was sort of defining that genre. 5:36 So it was a time when we were moving from kind of glam metal back into kind of rock 5:41 rock and roll. And I think Nirvana really is responsible for the majority of that. People 5:47 still call them the future of rock and roll. I believe they just won a video Vanguard award 5:51 34 years later, just the other night as well. So I mean, I think they still have a huge 5:57 impact on people. And Kurt specifically, I think he was a great sort of poetic esoteric 6:05 songwriter, but he just made, he was so authentic and he made so many of us sort of outsiders feel like 6:13 we had a place, you know, they ended up calling him the voice of the generation. 6:16 And I know he hated that because, you know, he just felt like this punk kid who was playing music, 6:22 but he's impacted a lot of people. And I mean, let's get this out of the way super quickly. 6:28 play, he was alleged to have taken his own life in 94. 6:33 And there were a lot of copycat suicides that year. 6:37 And kids still continue to take their lives because they believe Kurt Cobain did. 6:42 So we see every year we have kids killing themselves in April and leaving notes about 6:48 Kurt Cobain. 6:49 And I really think that we need to put this narrative to bed because we have been 6:54 and fed something that is not accurate about who he was 6:58 and how his life ended. 7:00 So you don't believe that it was suicide? 7:03 No, absolutely not. 7:04 Okay, so can you explain to our audience though 7:07 who you are and how you got involved in this? 7:09 Oh yeah, yeah. 7:10 So I'm just like a punk kid from Canada. 7:14 I was into Nirvana. 7:15 I was 18 when Kurt died. 7:17 And that impacted me a lot. 7:19 Like I started my first band at 19. 7:21 So at 18, I got a bass 7:23 and started playing come as you are and and doing music. And, you know, at the time I sort of believed 7:29 what everyone else believed. But then by about 95 it was coming out like, oh, you know, you might 7:35 have been fed a lie as to who this person was and what he did. But you're like, well, the adults 7:41 have got that in hand, right? If there was really something to his death, then the police, the 7:46 adults, other people in charge would be doing something. So I didn't really think about 7:51 You know, I played in punk bands, I got married, I started a business, did all the things that you do as an adult. 7:59 And then three years ago, my husband and I were watching them play live, because, you know, now you have big TVs. 8:06 Before in the 90s, we're watching them like this, and it doesn't feel like you're seeing them, but we're watching them play live in Seattle and just going, wow, they were so good live. 8:16 And then I went down this rabbit hole of, 8:19 well, whatever happened to the Siri 8:21 that Cobain didn't take his own life. 8:25 So I dug into that for a while 8:28 and I went on a few message boards. 8:31 And my business, I run an acne clinic 8:35 and my business was doing fairly well at the time. 8:37 So I was like, I can put a little bit, 8:38 I can invest into this if there's something 8:40 that can be done. 8:42 And someone on a message board said, 8:44 there was a witness to Kurt's death. He is an active user and he's been using heroin and fentanyl 8:50 for three decades now and he lives on the street. We're afraid he might pass away without having 8:56 his statement recorded. So a friend of mine and I said, okay, well, we're going to pay for him. 9:02 We're going to put him in a hotel. We're going to send a documentarian down there to film him. 9:08 So, we did that and he told us what in his opinion happened to Kurt the night he died. 9:15 He was there and we got that recorded and I ended up, I didn't know what to do with 9:22 the footage. 9:22 So, I have this guy saying, hey, he was murdered and here's what happened, but the police 9:28 didn't care. 9:28 They didn't want to see it because they said the case is closed, we don't care. 9:33 And there was nothing I could do really but put it on YouTube to try to let people 9:37 know what happened. So can you tell me who this guy was and what he said occurred? Yeah, so his 9:43 name is Joe Burns and he was, they had this huge house in Lake Washington, like their neighbor was 9:50 Bill Gates, you know, to put a sort of point on it. And so they had this huge house, but it was 9:55 kind of all of their friends who were drug users, most of them, it was, they could sort of come 10:01 and go as they wanted. So Kurt wasn't home at the time and he was actually in rehab. So 10:09 he comes home and I can get into that a little bit as well. Kurt comes home and Joe, Joe's 10:15 girlfriend and two other people are at the house. And did they know each other? What 10:21 was their relationship? Oh yeah. Yeah. So Kurt, Joe was a tattoo artist at the time. 10:25 So and he was friends with some of Kurt's friends. He played in a band called Asperin 10:29 feast. And so they had sort of played around the same venues as Nirvana. So that's how they knew 10:34 them. And so they, they were all Kurt's friends. But at the time, just so I know, like, are these 10:40 people that are coming in and out of the house? Because they're big drug users. And they know 10:43 that this is like the place to go. And they're all doing heroin, as opposed to just smoking pot. 10:48 Like, what was that? Like, yeah, pretty much. So yeah. So one of the people there was their 10:54 nanny. So their male nanny was named Cali Michael DeWitt. And this is an interesting sidebar, 11:00 but he was, he dated Courtney Love when he was 15. And she was, you know, 25. And he ended up. 11:10 Forget whatever plans you have this weekend, because you're staying at home and playing 11:14 on spin quests. 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Yeah. So he's kind of hanging 12:20 out out there. He, at this point, is a little bit paranoid because his, there 12:27 was an attempt on his life about a month earlier and he sort of knew that 12:31 something was wrong. So he's hanging out in the greenhouse and he goes 12:35 downstairs, goes into the kitchen and starts talking to Joe and he eats a 12:40 TV dinner and they're sort of just, you know, talking back and forth. And then one of Kurt's 12:46 friends comes in with somebody else. And Joe didn't name the other person. And they said, 12:54 hey, let's go back up to the greenhouse and do some more dope. And Kurt was like, I don't, 12:58 you know, I don't need to. He was, Joe said he was plenty high, didn't need to go back up 13:02 there and do any more dope. And so they manhandled him, pushed him back up to the 13:06 greenhouse and everything kind of went crazy 13:11 because it was really weird. 13:12 Nobody knew what was going on. 13:13 So Joe's girlfriend wants to leave 13:15 and they end up starting to leave. 13:18 And as they leave about 20 minutes later, 13:20 they hear a shotgun go off in the greenhouse. 13:23 Wow. 13:24 So yeah. 13:25 So yeah. 13:26 So this is this guy's account of what happened years later. 13:29 Like what are we talking about 30 years later? 13:32 32 years later. 13:33 Now he has been saying this story 13:34 and I have phone recordings of him basically telling the same story, you know, since at least 2010. 13:41 And sorry to interrupt you, but it's his girlfriend from the time still alive. Can she 13:46 cooperate that? The people that he's talking about that push him upstairs, is there a reason 13:50 why he won't give those names out? He did. So the guy who did it, his name is Dylan Carlson, 13:56 and he plays in a band called Earth. He was also an addict, and he was supposed to be 14:02 Kurt's best friend, but that's the person who led Kurt up to the greenhouse and made 14:07 sure that he never came down again. The other person, Joe, said he doesn't know him. He was 14:11 just a friend of Dylan's. Whether he actually is possibly afraid of that person, I'm not 14:17 sure. He's never ever told me who that was. And so, yeah. And so his girlfriend's 14:23 still alive. Her name's Panita Kelsey and she works at the Salvation Army in 14:28 Los Angeles, and she will not talk to us. Our very prestigious lawyer, we have like 14:34 a rock star lawyer. He was the former King County prosecutor. And he tried to talk to 14:40 her a few times and she would not, her lawyer said she wants nothing to do with it. 14:45 Wow. And did anyone try and speak to, you said his name was Dylan from Earth? 14:50 Yeah. So people have tried, we've tried to talk to Dylan. He of course denies 14:54 any involvement in Kurt's death, although I do have it from other sources that when 14:59 he is using, he has admitted to being a part of Kurt's death, but of course we don't have 15:06 any recordings, so that would technically be hearsay. 15:10 So let's go down that rabbit hole for a second. 15:12 If he's the one who did it, what are they saying, his motivation? 15:17 What's the motive for him to kill him? 15:19 So Kurt was leaving Nirvana. 15:22 So, it was fairly well known that he was just kind of done. 15:26 He had a two-year-old daughter that he loved and wanted to raise. 15:29 He was actively trying to quit heroin, and he had quit heroin before, so he was sober 15:35 for a year prior to his death. 15:38 So I think some people think, well, what does it matter? 15:41 He would have ended up dead anyways, and I mean, it still matters because justice 15:46 is justice. 15:46 this, but I don't think that's actually the case because he had quit before successfully. 15:53 So he wanted to quit heroin, he wanted to leave Seattle and he wanted to raise his daughter 15:57 and he was quitting Nirvana. 15:59 And Dylan, he was paid by Kurt, like he had money to do his drugs by Kurt. 16:07 And so I think that when Kurt's wife, who had a prenup, by the way, there was a prenup 16:14 and she was not going to get anything if Kurt divorced her. 16:17 I think she convinced Dylan that she would continue to provide for his habit once Kurt 16:23 was gone. 16:24 Got it. 16:26 So for people that are following the story and want a little more details, I want to 16:29 explain the official account of what the authorities say. 16:33 Yes. 16:33 So the authorities concluded that Kurt injected heroin and then shot himself, basically. 16:39 A lot of heroin. 16:40 Yes. 16:41 Okay. 16:41 Yeah. 16:42 His death is dated at April 5th, 1994, 16:45 but they said an electrician, as it's right, 16:47 found him on April 8th at his property. 16:50 Like, so what happened in the three days in between? 16:52 If Joe was leaving and here's a gunshot, 16:54 he doesn't like try and call him and find out what happened 16:56 or why didn't anyone go back? 16:59 He said, so he, they got in the car, 17:01 Callie, Jennifer, Jennifer is Macaulay Culkin's 17:06 step sister and she passed away in 2002, unfortunately. 17:09 I think she would have probably spoken out, 17:12 but she passed. 17:13 So they all get in the car and they're just panicking. 17:17 They don't know what to do. 17:18 They go to Jennifer's house 17:19 and they spend the next few days at Jennifer's house. 17:23 And Joe said, everybody was just talking 17:26 about Curt and the past tense at that point. 17:29 And he, you know, it's kind of a still a bit 17:31 of a drug haze too, because they were using. 17:35 So no, he never went back to the house. 17:36 the police never questioned him. Nothing. The police walked in, I mean, and let's talk about that 17:43 narrative as well. So yeah, they think Kurt died around the fifth, but they really have no idea when 17:49 he died, you know, after basically the third, the decomp levels he really could have passed, 17:54 you know, from the third to the fifth. So here's what the police want us to believe. Here's 17:59 the scenario. Kurt Cobain does a whole bunch of heroin. Okay, so more heroin, and this 18:06 is a quote from Detective Szynski who reviewed the file in 2014, more, he had more heroin 18:13 in his system than they had ever seen in King County, ever. 18:17 Wow. 18:17 So this person, this isn't just, oh, he did a little bit of heroin and then shot 18:21 himself. And I want to note that there's never been another case of anyone taking 18:27 a fatal dose of heroin and then using a violent means of death. Never ever has there ever been 18:32 anyone else who has done that in recorded history. So, you know, we have, I mean, that's bizarre 18:38 anyways. So they want you to believe he goes and he shoots up once, twice, without a tourniquet, 18:45 finds his veins, shoots up twice, puts the caps back on the needles, because of course you 18:50 would, right? So you put the caps back on the needles, he puts them away in the kit, 18:55 pushes the kid away, pulls his sleeves down, unrolls them, 18:59 buttons his sleeves, because his sleeves were buttoned up 19:02 when he was found, and then uses a five foot shotgun 19:06 that weighs seven pounds while he's dying, 19:10 suffocating on heroin. 19:12 And the police said that they think he had about two minutes 19:15 from the time he injected to when he used the shotgun. 19:20 So they think he had time to do all that stuff. 19:23 We know that he didn't. 19:24 Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not a heroin user and nor have I ever 19:28 Pretended to be I don't know much about it except for what you see in the movies or whatever or walking through 19:33 San Francisco and seeing the people that are lack half bent over 19:37 From what I have heard it sounds like or it looks like 19:41 Once you inject yourself and with a lot you kind of you're done. You're not like having full-on conversations. Are you? 19:47 You're like no you're out or whatever 19:50 us. Exactly, you can lift a shotgun. Like there's no universe 19:54 where and we've seen, because Courtney released videos of Kurt 19:58 when he was using and he's, yeah, he's out, he's and a lot of 20:02 times. So I've had conversations with a lot of nurses who they 20:09 find people in very bizarre positions because after they shoot 20:12 up, yeah, they just crumple. So if they're standing or 20:16 sitting, they just crumple to the ground. There's no, yeah, 20:19 there's no time to manipulate a shotgun or put caps back on needles or do any of those things once 20:24 you've shot up with heroin. And that's why they find so many users with the needle still in their 20:28 arm. Right. Because as soon as they, you know, the vast, well, I think it's about 66% of the time 20:34 they find people with needles in their arms. Happy birthday, America. It's time to celebrate 20:38 and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American-owned spinquest.com. 20:43 What's better than fireworks and American pie? Hitting a black tech in the palm of your hand 20:47 And you won't lose your fingers over a thousand games including slots and live dealers and $30 point packs are on sale for 10 20:55 SpinQuest.com buy American players for American players 21:00 SpinQuest is a free to play social casino point where prohibited visit spinquest.com for more details 21:06 Kirk's needles were capped and put away and what's the deal with the shotgun? Is that a big deal? 21:10 I mean, how do you kill yourself? It's a huge deal. Yeah, I mean you hear people with sawed-off shotguns 21:16 maybe, but was it sawed off? 21:19 It was not sawed off. 21:20 So it had a compensator, so it was over five feet. 21:23 And there's so many interesting things about the shotgun. 21:26 So yeah, it's this hugely long shotgun. 21:29 And keep in mind, he's wearing sneakers, 21:30 so he couldn't have used his toes, 21:32 his sneakers were tied up. 21:34 So, and it was, we don't have Kurt's arms wingspan, 21:39 right? 21:39 But we tested it with numerous people 21:41 that were between five foot eight and five foot 10. 21:43 and some of them could reach the trigger, 21:46 some of them couldn't. 21:48 So Kurt was five foot eight, five foot nine. 21:50 There was a possibility he could reach the trigger, 21:52 but he would have had to be holding the gun up 21:54 about six inches and just been able to reach that trigger. 21:58 So you've got this hugely long shotgun. 22:00 And the problem with the shotgun 22:01 is that we tested the shotgun. 22:04 We got an exact replica. 22:06 We ended up getting an investor 22:08 who invested in the science and testing everything. 22:10 So we got a replica of the shotgun 22:12 and we recreated the scene in the SPD notes they say Kurt's hand was on the forward barrel, 22:19 which is basically the forward part of the shotgun. Well, the way that the shotgun works, 22:24 that has to be open where the shotgun can't move and it can't eject a shell. Kurt's hand is wrapped 22:29 around the barrel of the shotgun, and yet there's a shotgun shell to his left. How did 22:35 the shotgun shell eject when the gun won't eject a shell if there's a hand on the forward 22:40 barrel. Right. So, you know, there's so many bizarre things. So what, what would be the motivation 22:46 of the police department? You know, did they just think this guy's an addict? We don't care. 22:50 This looks like an open and shut case. We just want to move on. Even though he was, 22:54 by then he was very famous now. Oh, and that's even worse. Rachel, they thought, 23:00 the guy who walked in, his name was Don Cameron. And if you're, you know, anybody 23:04 out there familiar with true crime and rule wrote about Don a lot in her books, especially 23:08 about Bundy because he worked on the Bundy case. So this guy's like six foot four, and he's this 23:14 giant cop, old school, you know, boys in blue type of cop. And he's a bully. And he walks in and goes, 23:22 you know, screw this whiny piece of shit rock star. I don't care. And he sees a suicide note 23:28 and calls it before they didn't check the toxicology. They didn't wait for the medical 23:32 examiner. They had called this a suicide by about 1015. And they found him at about, 23:37 they got there at about nine o'clock. 23:39 I'm curious, what did the suicide note say? 23:42 Oh gosh, so the top part, 23:44 so we had that analyzed by a very respectable 23:47 handwriting analyst, not somebody who goes, 23:49 oh, here's your love language in your handwriting, 23:51 like somebody who testifies in court 23:53 and has done that for 50 years. 23:55 So the top part is basically Kurt talking 23:57 about leaving Nirvana. 23:58 He's like, I'm not enjoying this anymore. 24:01 I just don't wanna do this. 24:02 I don't feel the same rush getting on stage 24:05 as I used to and basically saying he was quitting. 24:08 And at the bottom, he signs it, love Kurt Cobain. 24:13 Then there's four lines tagged on. 24:15 And anybody who even looks at that with the naked eye 24:17 can see that the handwriting is different 24:19 in the last four lines. 24:21 The last four lines are where it says basically, 24:24 Courtney and Francis, Francis is his daughter. 24:27 I love you so much. 24:28 I can't go on. 24:29 Please go on without me. 24:31 You know, it sounds very good, bi-cruel world, 24:33 like very movie-themed sort of, you know, 24:36 taking suicide note at the bottom. 24:38 So we had that analyzed. 24:40 The thing is that Kurt and Courtney's lawyer, 24:42 Rosemary Carroll, found a practice note 24:45 in Courtney's backpack. 24:47 So Courtney Love, who again was Kurt's wife at the time 24:52 and had everything to lose by Kurt divorcing her, 24:55 was staying over at her lawyer's house 24:57 and she left her backpack there. 24:59 And the lawyer found a practice sheet 25:01 where Courtney had been practicing Kurt's handwriting. 25:04 So as the handwriting examiner is going to me, 25:07 he's going, well, Kurt could have written 25:08 the bottom part too. 25:10 And I was like, okay, cool. 25:11 So could you look at this handwriting practice sheet 25:15 and look at Courtney's later handwriting 25:18 and tell me whether she could have written that? 25:20 And he said, Michelle, in 50 years, 25:22 I've never seen this before. 25:24 But yes, she could have written 25:25 the bottom part of that note. 25:30 School runs, full schedules, long days, 25:33 Keep up with ZenFloor. 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So who was the note written out to somebody when he was to Bada? So Bada was 27:04 his childhood imaginary friend. Oh, but the funny part is that, you know, Courtney has 27:09 always called it a, you know, a suicide note. And she said it's to me and Francis, but 27:14 he signed it. Love Kurt Cobain. Do you sign your last name to notes that you leave 27:20 for your family? No, but is there a possibility? I mean, obviously, we don't know now, 27:24 but that he was writing to his childhood friend, whatever, or himself, basically being like, 27:30 I want out of this band. And he's just writing his thoughts down while he's high and this is a 27:36 note to him. And then this gets added later. I mean, it sounds somewhat obvious to me. 27:41 Yeah, absolutely. So he journaled a lot. And I think this was perhaps a note to his fans 27:46 saying like, this is why I'm leaving Nirvana or a note to his management. Or like you said, 27:50 maybe he was just kind of... That's what we journal for, right? Yeah. You wouldn't want, you know, 27:55 I wouldn't want my journal, something that I had just written, you know, one night when I was 27:59 frustrated, et cetera, to be read to everyone. So the interesting thing is then, she gives the 28:06 police that note, the police take the suicide note, and they give it back to her within three 28:12 days, which is strongly, I mean, the screw ups in this case are beyond that the police 28:21 didn't do anything right. They didn't bag his hands. They didn't check for fingerprints 28:25 or gunshot residue. They did fingerprint the gun three months later and found no fingerprints. 28:31 They fingerprinted the note that he allegedly wrote or sorry, the pen that he wrote the 28:36 note with no fingerprints on the pen. So Kurt wiped his fingerprints down after 28:39 he died, I guess, that's what we're to believe. So Courtney gets this note back and there's 28:45 a vigil for Kurt in Seattle, and she starts reading the note. She doesn't think anyone's 28:50 ever going to see this note, right? So she says, I had it good as she's reading it. 28:57 But what Kurt said in the note was, I have it good. So as she's reading the note, 29:01 she's changing everything to past tense to make it look like he didn't want to 29:05 live anymore. But the note is available for anyone to see online and he does not 29:09 say anything in past tense. 29:11 Wow. 29:11 Okay. 29:11 And there's, yeah. 29:12 Couple questions. 29:13 So this guy, the electrician, is it the electrician that found him or like the caretaker or something? 29:18 The electrician. 29:19 And that's another interesting one. 29:20 So how, well, let me back up for one second. 29:24 Is it Courtney that found the suicide note or it was the electrician that found the 29:30 suicide note? 29:30 It was the electrician that found everyone. 29:32 But the problem is that she couldn't seem to get anybody to find Kurt. 29:37 Kurt, she didn't want to find Kurt because she's, at that time, she's in Los Angeles. 29:42 That is, in my opinion, her alibi. 29:44 So she calls the electrician and says, can you go up to the greenhouse and put some lights 29:49 up there? 29:50 My husband's missing, and I don't know where he is, and I think he's suicidal and 29:53 has a gun. 29:54 But do you mind like going to the greenhouse and putting lights up there? 29:58 So this wasn't an electrician that was like on staff that everyone knew? 30:02 It was like a random. 30:03 No. 30:03 You know, she called a company and got him to go up there. 30:06 And Kurt was very visible. 30:08 We believe he was moved around the greenhouse so that he could be seen by the windows. 30:13 So he saw him in the greenhouse and thought it was a mannequin. 30:17 And then, you know, that classic sort of, and then he looked further and could see 30:22 that it was Kurt Cobain. 30:23 So he, or, you know, a person. 30:26 So he called his manager and the manager at the electric at the company called a 30:32 radio station instead of 911 and said, 30:34 you're going to owe me a lot of music tickets for this. 30:37 Kurt Cobain has shot himself in his house. 30:40 And anyways, and then they called 911, 30:42 the radio station called 911. 30:44 Wow, what a story. 30:46 Okay. And why was Courtney, 30:48 were they in a bad relationship? 30:49 Like why was she in LA? 30:51 Was she with the baby? 30:52 And I thought you said the caretaker 30:53 or not the caretaker, 30:54 the babysitter lived at the house too. 30:56 So where was everybody? 30:58 So Callie, one of the nannies was at the house. 31:01 they had another nanny named Jackie and she was in LA with Courtney. So before Kurt dies, 31:08 they have an intervention. He, again, he had started using, but Courtney was a user as well 31:15 and kind of everybody he knew, you know, drank or did something. So she gets all these people 31:20 from the label to come to their house and do an intervention. And Kurt's just pissed off. 31:25 He's like, you're all hypocrites, you know, just, I'm not interested in this. And he basically 31:31 kind of storms out of this intervention. But everybody knew it wasn't going to work, you know. 31:36 A lot of people, a lot of his real friends didn't bother going because they're like, 31:39 well, that's dumb. That's never going to work. And then a few days later, he decides, okay, 31:44 I'll check myself into rehab in Exodus in Los Angeles. Courtney is already in Los Angeles. 31:49 She says she's drying out in a hotel room. She's not going to go to rehab, 31:52 but she'll dry out in a hotel room. 31:55 So he goes to Exodus, which is, again, 31:58 something that you decide to do if you're on free will, 32:01 so you don't have to stay there, he checks in. 32:04 Courtney won't leave him alone at Exodus, 32:06 and I'll get into a little bit more 32:07 about their relationship in a second, 32:09 but she's calling the pay phones all the time 32:11 and driving everybody crazy. 32:14 So I've talked to Exodus staff, 32:16 they actually had to turn off the pay phones 32:17 because she wouldn't stop calling. 32:19 So Kurt ended up leaving 32:21 because she wouldn't even leave him alone 32:23 for five minutes at Exodus, so he just went home. 32:25 So on April 1st, he flew home, 32:28 and basically after that, we don't know what happened to him. 32:32 We don't know what he did for those, you know, 32:34 three or four days before he died. 32:36 There are many different rumors. 32:38 People claim they saw him here, saw him there, 32:40 but there's no proof that... 32:41 There's no proof of Kurt Cobain existing in the world 32:45 basically after April 2nd. 32:47 Got it. 32:48 Go ahead. 32:49 Oh, I was just gonna talk about their relationship and the abuse. Okay. So basically, I think now 32:55 we really understand, you know, these terms a little bit more, we understand what a narcissist is 33:00 and we understand that men can be abused too. So for two and a half years, she was physically 33:05 and mentally abusing Kurt Cobain. And this comes from many people in his inner circle. 33:10 She would hit him, punch him, push him into walls, scream at him constantly. And then she 33:17 She would call the police pretending that he hit her, and then the police would come and 33:22 realize that she hit him. 33:24 There has never been any proof that Kurt Cobain has ever laid a finger on Courtney. 33:30 And the police, every single time she called them, didn't press any charges against Kurt 33:34 because she had no wounds, and he did, so it was very obvious. 33:39 And she's a very, I'm not excusing, I'm not saying a man should ever hit a woman, 33:44 But she's a very large woman and very imposing and you know, she is many lawsuits. She has hit many people. She's 33:52 extremely 33:55 narcissistic and just tremendously abusive. There are so many lawsuits that that we could you know talk about 34:01 You know the one where she tried to kill her son-in-law comes to mind she 34:06 Isaiah Silva was married to Francis and she tried to have him killed by Sam Lofty 34:11 Britney Spears old 34:13 manager. Right. And that's all documented. The LA police were called and it's all, you know, 34:19 these are all filed things. And so people going, well, I don't think she would kill someone. And 34:23 you're going, well, she tried to kill her son-in-law. She has so many lawsuits against her for 34:31 attacking women. You know, of course, she attacks women smaller than her, 34:35 broken bottles, you know, she's constantly, and she's also killed a lot of animals. Her 34:42 When Francis was little, this was told to me by a source so I will say allegedly she would kill Francis's pets to punish Francis if she didn't do something right. 34:55 And Hortney's first husband wrote a book and in it he talks about when they were married one time he had gone to work and when he got home she had killed the cat and dog. 35:06 and he couldn't understand she was acting like it was completely normal and that the cat and dog 35:12 didn't mind that she had you know ended their lives and so she you know she's I shut her to 35:19 think how many animals have have passed it at her hands it's so it's so horrible and she so she 35:26 knew he wanted a divorce and they had a prenup and you know she had an album her album came out 35:32 seven days after Kirk died. It's called Live Through This. And I mean, you know, that launched her. 35:39 So I mean, it gives me chills hearing about this. So where is she now? What is she doing? 35:45 She was living in England for a while and she is back in the States when we got a lot of 35:51 press in January after the peer reviewed paper was published. And she so she came back to 35:57 of the state, she's trying to launch her career again, 36:00 I think, in, we have heard that it is in retaliation 36:03 for us saying that we believe Kurt's death was a homicide. 36:06 So when you see her on your feed, 36:08 you can thank me for that, I'm so sorry. 36:11 Exactly. 36:13 So, all right, if you want listeners 36:15 to hear just one piece of evidence, 36:18 if people are still listening and they're like, 36:19 well, okay, I don't think the authorities 36:21 must have checked everything, 36:23 what is the one piece of evidence 36:24 that you are like, this cannot go away, 36:27 This cannot be not, you know, we can't explain this and this is our smoking gun. 36:32 And that's the thing. There are so many little pieces, but I'll say, you know, 36:36 one that's really interesting and that people, if they're not too squeamish, can take a look at. 36:40 So in the death scene photos, you can see Kurt's hand that is wrapped around the 36:43 barrel of the gun was wrapped around it. There's no blood spatter on it. 36:47 There's blood spatter on the gun, but there's no blood spatter on Kurt's hand. So somehow 36:51 Now, he allegedly shot himself in the soft palate of the mouth and it spattered everywhere 36:58 but not on his hand. 36:59 So what that says is that his hand wasn't on the gun when the gun was shot. 37:03 And I mean, I think that anybody, you know, if we talk about physics, there's no universe 37:08 where it's possible and his hand is pristine, you know, there's nothing, not even a drop 37:13 of blood on his hand. 37:14 Right. 37:15 Oh, I've had no luck lately. 37:18 Wait, lady luck? 37:19 Britsky, I got you. 37:21 I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. 37:23 They have all of my favorite games, slot games, 37:26 live blackjack craps, and bubble craps. 37:29 You can even get a $30 coin pack for just 10 bucks. 37:33 10 bucks for 30? 37:34 I'm headed over to spinquest.com right now. 37:37 SpinQuest is a free to play social casino. 37:39 Boyd we're prohibited. 37:40 Visit spinquest.com for more details. 37:45 So you talked about a document, 37:46 a guy going in and filming, right? 37:49 And then getting following you guys around. 37:50 Is this documentary out? 37:53 Where's the status of that? 37:55 We're still working on that. 37:59 It's been an interesting process, 38:01 and you would probably know a lot more about this 38:03 than I do, but certain things 38:05 that you sign a preliminary contract for 38:07 then start to change, 38:09 and you go, hmm, I don't... 38:11 We had a lot of people who wanted 38:14 to do a documentary with us, 38:15 about 22 companies in January, 38:17 and I chose one based on two things. 38:19 I wanted the science fairly represented and I wanted it to be about Kurt and I wanted to continue owning the the research 38:27 I wasn't willing to quit. I have a podcast and I wasn't willing to quit or stop doing my podcast so that they could tell the story 38:33 right and 38:34 Now I think we're having issues with whether or not that is and I'm not going to 38:39 I'm not able to sign something that gives them all of my work in perpetuity. So so we'll see what happens 38:45 So you're still collecting evidence. 38:47 You still have the people you're working with 38:49 who are willing to speak on camera 38:50 and you're still working on this, but you're not, 38:52 you haven't fully signed with either a network 38:54 or a production company who's gonna take the rights away. 38:58 No, exactly, yeah. 38:59 And, you know, we are constantly requesting FOIAs, 39:02 like freedom of information requests 39:04 and the Seattle Police Department really, 39:07 really dislikes us, but we're constantly doing that. 39:10 And I should probably tell you, 39:11 so we are the only people who have ever had a meeting 39:14 with the Seattle police. 39:16 Last year in November, Mark Larson, 39:19 who was the former King County prosecutor, 39:21 and what that means, 39:22 because I didn't really know what this meant either. 39:24 He's a very conservative prosecutor. 39:26 So what he did in Seattle for 35 years was decide whether 39:29 the police had a case and they would bring it to him 39:32 and say, can we prosecute this person? 39:33 And Mark would decide whether or not 39:35 they could prosecute somebody. 39:37 So he thinks, he was very conservative at first. 39:42 He, I had to go over all the evidence with him. 39:45 We did all the, all the science. 39:48 And I'm not saying he's convinced it's a homicide, 39:50 but he believes there are enough questions 39:52 that the case needs to be reopened. 39:54 And that's sort of our stance with the SPD. 39:56 If you can prove that we're wrong, absolutely, 40:00 then prove it and we'll go away. 40:01 That's okay. 40:01 If they actually go and get an unbiased pathologist 40:06 to go through his autopsy and an unbiased toxicologist. 40:10 because, you know, at the time, 40:11 the pathologist, the medical examiner 40:14 had a previous relationship with Courtney. 40:17 So the person who did Kurt's autopsy 40:20 used to sleep with Courtney. 40:24 So, I mean, there's that. 40:25 Seems like a conflict of interest, yeah. 40:28 Yes, you know, and so when we went into the SPD, 40:30 we had a meeting, it was about 50 minutes long. 40:33 We were with the chief of police was there, 40:35 the assistant chief was there, 40:37 the lead detective was there, 40:39 and the lead detective, she seemed very interested. She was taking notes. We went on with a 200 page 40:43 evidence binder and a video on a thumb drive showing that the gun didn't work the way they 40:49 said it worked, and therefore the crime scene was obviously contaminated. And the chief just 40:54 basically said, first thing he said was, well, it's about equity. If we reopen the Cobain 40:59 case, then we have to reopen every single case where a loved one thinks their loved 41:04 one's death was a homicide instead of a suicide. And I said, well, if they bring in 200 pages 41:10 of evidence, then that's your job. You know, that's not, you can't just let people run around 41:16 framing homicide as suicide. And so, and then the other thing you said was, I don't know if we 41:21 have any evidence to test left. We didn't keep anything. We gave it all back to Courtney. 41:26 So Courtney had been demanding for 30 years that they destroy all the evidence. 41:29 And that's, again, something that's never happened before that we can find. 41:35 No family member has ever demanded the police department destroy evidence in a loved one's 41:40 death. 41:41 Has anyone actually accused Courtney of being responsible for his death? 41:46 Yeah. 41:47 Yeah. 41:47 I mean, so there in 1998, there was a documentary called Curtin Courtney. 41:52 And it was done by the BBC and the director Nick Broomfield. 41:55 In that documentary, there is a man who says Courtney offered him $50,000 to whack her old man. 42:03 And so, you know, they accused Courtney. 42:06 At the end of the film, the BBC made him add some science that was not actually valid. 42:11 They basically said, well, he could lift the shotgun because this guy, this other guy did edible morphine 42:19 and was able to operate a shotgun. 42:21 Right. 42:22 but injecting something and something going through the stomach are two completely different 42:25 mechanisms. Yeah. So, but basically, so that's what people saw in 98. And they were like, oh, 42:30 okay, well, I think maybe she did something. And then in 2014, Ben Statler did a movie called 42:36 Soaked in Bleach. And it was, it was an independent film. It was quite big. And he 42:41 absolutely accused Courtney of taking Kurt's life. And then we, you know, 42:47 the thing is, when we went into the SPD, we did not say we know who did this. 42:50 the only time we even had to mention Courtney 42:53 was because to prove that he didn't write that note, 42:56 we had to show that she had the ability 42:59 to copy his handwriting. 43:00 Otherwise there's a note and then it doesn't look like 43:02 So you aren't even going in there saying we don't know who, 43:05 we know who did this, we were accusing this person. 43:07 It's more like this didn't happen 43:09 and we want it reopened 43:10 to see what the findings could be. 43:13 And prove us wrong because we have these questions 43:16 and we want these questions answered. 43:18 So I have a question about that. 43:19 Is there, like, what is the strongest argument against your theory? 43:25 Is there one thing that gives you pause at all that you think maybe you could be wrong, 43:30 and that's the one thing you want to see the proof about? 43:33 And that's interesting, because the proof that people say is that, well, Kurt was depressed, 43:39 and that's a narrative that started after he died. He wasn't depressed. 43:44 His friends say he wasn't depressed. He had never tried to commit suicide before, 43:47 but now he's always talked about as the suicidal person. 43:53 That's what I thought too. 43:54 So he wasn't somebody who talked about suicide 43:56 or attempted suicide in the past. 43:59 No, never. 44:00 He talked once on a, you know, 44:02 and you have to remember in the 90s, 44:04 like even now as Gen X, you know, 44:06 it's like, oh, it's Monday. 44:07 Just like, we joke about that all the time, right? 44:11 So, but one time he said in an interview 44:13 that he had very bad stomach pains 44:15 and that when his stomach pains were at their worst, 44:19 he thought about taking his life. 44:21 Anyone in chronic pain, I think, has thought about that. 44:26 And I think he was just an authentic open person. 44:28 I think we've all thought about taking our lives 44:30 at some point, or at least I believe the stat 44:32 is 48% of people have. 44:34 Right, or at least it's a common thing to say. 44:36 It hurts so bad I want him to kill myself. 44:39 Exactly right. 44:39 And that's what he said once. 44:41 Now, his stomach was sorted out. 44:44 So after that, the last interviews he did in the end of 93, 44:47 he was talking about his stomach pain was long gone. 44:50 He was very happy. 44:52 He was working on new music, you know, he was planning to go solo. 44:56 He wanted to quit Nirvana, but he still wanted to make music. 44:58 So he had done unplugged. 45:00 And I think that was the direction he wanted to go. 45:02 He wanted to collaborate with some other people, wanted to do music 45:05 on his own terms. 45:06 He just didn't want to tour all the time with Nirvana. 45:10 So interestingly, the suicide attempt that people talk about was in Rome about a month 45:16 before he died. 45:17 He was in Italy and he had had bronchitis and he wasn't feeling well. 45:22 And Courtney had been, she was supposed to meet him there for their anniversary and 45:26 she kept not showing up. 45:27 And she was, you know, going shopping, she has admitted she was cheating with Billy 45:31 Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins and Kurt knew it. 45:34 And by the time she did get to Italy, they got in a huge fight. 45:38 and he ended up in a coma. 45:40 So Kurt told her in this fight that he wanted a divorce. 45:43 Now, if we looked at any true crime case 45:45 and every time the spouse said they want a divorce, 45:48 they either end up in a coma or dead, 45:50 we would be looking at why that is. 45:53 So Kurt tells her he wants a divorce. 45:54 She says, I found him at about 2.30 or three 45:57 in the morning with blood coming out of his nose. 45:59 I had not in one hand and money in the other hand. 46:02 And then the ambulance is called at about 6.30 a.m. 46:05 So, she herself talks about finding him three hours prior to calling an ambulance, and she 46:10 thinks he's dead. 46:11 So, she calls David Geffen, and she calls everybody and tells them Kurt's dead. 46:17 He's not dead. 46:18 He's in a coma, but she's, you know, very seemingly very happy to tell people that 46:22 he's gone. 46:23 He goes to the hospital in Rome, and he ends up getting his stomach pumped, and 46:29 he's fine. 46:29 So the doctor after Kurt dies, he said, I see suicidal people all the time. Kurt Cobain was 46:37 not one of them. That was an accidental overdose. And by the way, the overdose was on her medication. 46:44 So she had Rohypnol, a prescription for it. And he overdosed on champagne and Rohypnol. 46:50 Now, we know that that is the date rape drug, right? People put it in people's drinks. 46:55 and Kurt drank some champagne and ended up in a coma 46:59 on her prescription of her hypnal. 47:01 Why would she ever, 47:02 why does anyone have a prescription for that? 47:04 What's it supposed to be? 47:04 He said it helps her sleep. 47:06 Got it. 47:06 It's like a sleeping drug. 47:07 So yeah, yeah. 47:09 So anyways, and so it was accidental. 47:11 Kurt kept saying it was accidental. 47:12 It was framed as accidental. 47:14 And then after he died, 47:15 it got turned into that was a suicide attempt. 47:18 But Kurt said it was accidental. 47:20 The doctor in Rome said it was absolutely accidental 47:23 And his counselor at Exodus was never told that he was suicidal. 47:28 There was no, his counselor at Exodus, 47:30 if he had thought Kurt was suicidal, 47:32 they would have put him in a different section and had him under watch. 47:35 So, and he never, they didn't talk about anything like that. 47:38 His, his time at Exodus, he just talked about the band. 47:42 There was a lawsuit coming up that he was a little bit worried about. 47:46 But there was nothing. 47:48 So his counselor at Exodus also didn't think he was suicidal. 47:51 every day you make around 35,000 choices what to wear toaster cereal one 47:57 more episode or time for bed the last thing you need is to stress over your 48:01 car insurance that's where corn market comes in we make choosing your car 48:05 insurance simple we do all the hard work so you don't have to spend your 48:08 time comparing endless quotes call us today and save up to 200 euro of your 48:13 car insurance corn market we compare you save 48:16 offer applies to new customers who take out a new policy by phone before 48:19 for 31st of December, 2026. 48:21 Discounts are up to a max 10% of the premium 48:22 and are subject to a minimum premium of 355 euro. 48:25 Under writer eligibility criteria and season seeds apply. 48:27 Core Marker Group Financial Services Limited 48:29 is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. 48:31 So what does success look like to you? 48:34 What are you looking for helping for? 48:36 Hey guys, Lady Luck here. 48:38 I just love the fall season. 48:40 Chris morning, pumpkin spice latte 48:42 and it's the best time to cozy up and play spin quest. 48:45 They have over a thousand different slots 48:48 in all my favorite casino-style games. 48:50 And they're running a deal for all new players, 48:53 a $30 coin package for just $10 bucks. 48:56 So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, 48:58 visit spinquest.com, and download the app today. 49:01 SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. 49:03 Boydwear prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. 49:07 It is getting the case, 49:09 the death certificate changed to undetermined. 49:12 We're not saying, like, go in and, like, declare it a homicide. 49:14 We want the case reopened, 49:16 and the police to do the job that they should have done 49:18 in 94, they should have bagged his hands. 49:20 They should have fingerprinted the gun. 49:22 They should have tested him for gunshot residue. 49:25 Did he even use that shotgun? 49:27 They should have talked to the people at the house. 49:29 They never interviewed any of those people. 49:31 Is there a way, like have you talked to people 49:33 that said even without the stuff to test now, 49:35 because it's been so long and Courtney has it, 49:38 is there a way that they can still open it 49:40 without that evidence, 49:41 but using the evidence that you have? 49:44 Yeah. So they still have the autopsy material. So they have the slides. They can look at the 49:50 autopsy. So the thing is too that I probably should mention is as possibly tied for the 49:56 biggest piece of evidence. And we had Dr. Sokos, Michael Sokos, who is the lead pathologist 50:01 in Berlin, an exceptional doctor. And he looked at Kurt's autopsy and said, 50:06 this man was dead before the shotgun. And I can explain that to anybody who watches 50:11 is true crime. So you know, when somebody drowns, or when they find somebody in the water, 50:15 they can tell whether they've drowned or not by whether there's water in their lungs, right? 50:19 If there's no water in their lungs, they were probably dead before they got in the water. 50:23 When someone gets shot in the mouth, there is so much blood and matter that comes back. 50:29 There's that autonomic breath you take as you're dying. The blood would have went 50:34 into his lungs. There's no aspirated blood in Cobain's lungs. And that means he was 50:38 breathing when that shotgun went off. So the autopsy proves in my opinion that it was a homicide 50:45 and they have all of that material. So they actually have the slides of the lungs. If the 50:49 autopsy was done wrong and there is aspirated blood in the lungs, then great. Get a pathologist 50:55 to look over that. So they have all the autopsy material, the toxicology notes. 51:01 You know, there are things like we believe Kurt was moved, there was blood on the bottom of 51:04 genes, they may not have that to test, you know, those things. They melted the shotgun down because 51:09 Courtney demanded it. And so they don't have that to test, but they can definitely utilize the 51:15 medical information and determine that this needs to be explained. 51:21 And if they... Sorry, go ahead. 51:23 Oh no, just... And then they can talk to the people who were there, I think. 51:26 That's exactly what I was going to say. At that point, they can subpoena the people to 51:30 you have to give a test to testify. 51:34 So Kurt's lawyer, who found the practice notice still alive, 51:37 they could subpoena her. 51:39 Bonnie, like the one who works at the Salvation Army now, 51:43 she's clean, she's been clean for 30 years, 51:45 she's very religious. 51:46 I believe that if the police speak to her, 51:48 she will tell them the truth. 51:49 There are numerous people that they can speak with. 51:53 And I even think Callie, who was the former nanny, 51:57 I think he might say what happened. 52:00 And interestingly, everybody who was in on this thing got really good jobs after this. 52:06 Callie got a job at Geffen. 52:08 Dylan got money orders for the next 20 years. 52:12 So everybody sort of got compensated except for Joe and Bonnie, who were Kurt's friends, 52:18 more than Courtney's friends. 52:21 So I think there are a lot of people they could talk to. 52:24 We gave them Joe Byrne's name and his phone number, told them to call him. 52:28 They were not interested. 52:29 And now, you know, that chief that we talked to, Chief Barnes in Seattle, ended up having 52:33 to resign because he almost attacked a journalist, you know, six weeks ago. 52:39 So once there's, yeah, it's wild. 52:42 Once there's a new chief and we plan to bring our evidence in again and see if we can, 52:47 you know, see if the new chief is more receptive. 52:49 Right. 52:50 And just curious, what happened to his estate? 52:52 Did it all go to Courtney? 52:54 Every penny. 52:55 How much? 52:56 Well, it ended up being about $450 million. 53:00 Now, the other interesting thing is, 53:02 she took her own daughter to court to try to, 53:05 Francis was supposed to get a bunch of that money 53:07 when she turned 18. 53:08 So Courtney took her to court 53:09 to try to take that money from Francis. 53:14 And the judge said he'd never seen a mother 53:17 try to do that to her own daughter 53:19 and awarded Francis her money. 53:20 And Francis being married Tony Hawk's son. 53:23 So she's now, you know, she's now in her 30s. She has a baby and she has no association with 53:30 her mother anymore. She hasn't talked to her since 2019 and Courtney has never met that child. 53:35 So, you know, I'm so glad that Francis at least got away from that situation. 53:39 Yeah. Listen, before this conversation, I really did not know much. I didn't know anything 53:44 about Kurt Cobain. I was not, I mean, I'm not a fan of Nirvana. It's just not my genre. 53:49 This is so interesting, I'm in. 53:51 I'm in it with you. 53:52 I think that this is amazing 53:54 and I hope you get the documentary you want 53:56 because I think that people need to hear what you're saying 53:59 because what you're saying makes a lot of sense 54:02 even to dumb people. 54:03 I mean, I think there's enough questions there 54:06 that someone should say, let me rethink this. 54:10 So I guess my last question for you, 54:12 what specific action are you guys taking now? 54:14 Like while you're waiting to see 54:15 if a documentary is happening, 54:17 I know you spoke to the Seattle police, but I'm assuming you're not just waiting for an answer. What's next for you? 54:22 Yeah, I know that well, they gave us an answer in January and basically they the medical examiners said I won't change it to 54:28 Undetermined until the SPD reopens the case and the SPD. They're so cute 54:33 They said well, we won't reopen the case unless you change it to undetermined 54:36 So they have this cute little circle going and they have little nicknames for us. It's it's really quite 54:42 quite insulting especially to Mark Larson who again is a is a veteran of the 54:47 King County law, but yeah, we're continuing to work to get the people involved, get people 54:55 who have never seen, they don't know. 54:57 They think that this guy took his own life and that he was a whiny piece of shit rock 55:02 star who was not grateful for everything he had and that couldn't be further from 55:06 the truth. 55:07 So we're also trying to get Kurt's friends to come out and talk about that he was 55:12 He's just actually really kind, really funny guy and he wasn't this whiny, depressed person.
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