Show full transcript 0:40 School was a trigger. 0:41 He had ADD. 0:42 He had lots of anxiety. 0:44 Then he went into opioids. 0:46 He ran away from home and FBI. 0:50 We'd like to talk to Richard, please. 0:52 Those types of stories happened from that time 0:55 when he was 17 until the time he passed away 24. 0:58 You just share a little bit about what it's like to get a call like that to know that from that moment on your life 1:04 Will never be the same explain what pivotal moments you went through or created for yourself 1:09 To make the path for that joy for yourself to learn how to live again after this loss 1:14 I believe in the signs because I believe that there is an unstoppable power of love all of a sudden 1:22 This huge mara butterfly comes circles my head dances around the table circles the table 1:28 dances around my head again and then flutters off. 1:33 This book is not just a book. 1:35 It's a mission to talk to people, to talk to survivors, 1:38 to talk to people that are hurting. 1:40 And if this can bring even a molecule of joy 1:44 into their lives or possibly change lives, 1:48 then I'm very grateful for that. 2:22 Anne-Marie, thank you so much for joining me here 2:24 in Palm Beach. 2:25 Thank you, Rachel, for having me. 2:27 Of course. 2:28 So I want to paint a picture for the people 2:30 that are listening or watching about life quite a while ago but when you were a mother of three 2:37 children and you were married and then you were not, you were a single mother, but kind of talk 2:43 about your kid's childhood, what it was like for you, your family, and for them. 2:49 Well, I have three children, Richard, Nick, and Catherine, 2:55 and it was, you know, the busy house of the three kids. 3:01 But Richard really kind of got into a lot of trouble 3:06 and a lot of shenanigans. 3:08 And so- 3:09 Like so many kids do. 3:10 Like so many kids do. 3:11 But he's, and at first I really didn't think much of it 3:15 because I thought he's a boy, they do these things. 3:18 But as he grew older, the chaos kind of came in 3:24 into his life. 3:25 And he started acting out. 3:28 He loved to shock people, the shock and off actor, 3:31 whether it was his friends pulling pranks 3:36 or he just liked to, especially, 3:39 he liked to get results in adults, especially. 3:43 So he would say shocking things or do shocking things. 3:47 And after a while, I started to get concerned 3:51 that maybe I needed to get professional help for him. 3:54 Right, so wait, before you get into that, 3:56 what was the age difference in the children? 3:59 Tell us where you lived, that kind of thing. 4:00 How old you were, or how the kids were 4:02 when the divorce happened? 4:04 The kids were, my daughter was five, 4:08 and middle son was nine, 4:11 and Richard would have been 12. 4:13 Okay, okay. 4:14 And you were in Illinois. 4:15 We were in Illinois, 4:16 and we were in a little North Shore suburb of Chicago, 4:21 And I always, you know, dubbed to myself as the mom 4:24 with the twin set and the pearls and the ballet flats 4:27 and just very conservative, 4:29 but very, very happy. 4:32 And I was a single mom for five years, in those years. 4:37 You know, we had a peaceful home 4:38 and it was always stuck with everything they needed. 4:43 Right. 4:44 Was there any issue with, I mean, 4:46 my parents got divorced when I was little. 4:48 you always hear about how that affected kids. 4:50 Do you think that affected the kids 4:51 or did they love it? 4:52 Cause then they could have time with you, then with him. 4:55 They did like the time alone. 4:57 They really, really liked the time alone. 4:59 And I think that then having every other weekend 5:02 with their dad, you know, was enough and that worked. 5:06 But it kind of, things started happening 5:09 at school with Richard. 5:11 He would talk to a teacher about guns 5:14 and then the teacher would call me in and say, 5:16 Oh my gosh, you know, it was 2004 and people were afraid of guns. 5:20 Yeah. And I wasn't that worried because our family took gun safety very, very, very seriously. 5:28 So I wasn't worried about it. But as he got older, things got worse. And 5:35 he was smoking pot and he used to say, Mom, pot makes me feel normal. 5:39 So, some of the early signs for bipolar disorder came about when he was about 12, 13, 14. 5:49 So had him tested, school was a trigger, he had ADD, he had, you know, lots of anxiety, 5:57 and slowly we noticed this, you know, bipolar. 6:01 And that's a very, very hard diagnosis, and a lot of doctors won't diagnose it. 6:06 I mean, they just don't do it. 6:08 And especially in that age, is that in that age? 6:10 I mean, it's very common for little boys to be, you know, 6:14 they're wild child. 6:16 And a lot of especially boys are diagnosed with ADD. 6:20 So I didn't worry about that so much. 6:22 But as his behaviors got more outlandish, 6:26 it just, it worried me. 6:29 And as he, he always told me that pot should be legal 6:32 because it made him feel normal. 6:35 And I always said, well, when you go to get a job 6:37 a drug test, you're going to fail it and you're not going to get the job. Oh right, yeah. And so 6:42 but he was like, but mom, it's the only thing that makes me feel normal. So he kept smoking pot 6:49 and he, you know, was obviously doing it behind our backs and he ended up going to several 6:57 outpatient programs. Yeah, he ended up going to outpatient programs, inpatient programs, 7:14 because Pot was really, I mean, he was addicted to smoking Pot. 7:18 Right. 7:19 And that just wasn't legal. 7:20 And when you put him in those programs, was he against it? 7:25 Was he like, I need this? 7:26 Like how? 7:27 He was so against it. 7:28 Yeah. 7:30 Really, really against it. 7:32 I would take him, he would be acting. 7:35 There was one time when he was acting very strange 7:39 in the car and he started, you know, 7:41 I didn't know what he was on. 7:42 and he was like beating the window and beating the door, 7:46 and I just drove to the hospital. 7:49 And, you know, he just ran away, 7:53 he just wouldn't have anything to do with it. 7:54 So he started to have behaviors that couldn't be controlled, 7:57 that you didn't know what was going on, 7:59 that became evident that it was more 8:00 than just a rambunctious kid who doesn't like school, 8:04 who maybe has anxious behaviors around people or things. 8:09 It was, it seemed more serious. 8:10 It was definitely more got more and more serious and the drugs got more serious, right? 8:16 they then he went into opioids right and 8:20 You know we got him an apartment in the city when and you know when he had finally graduated from high school 8:26 We got him an apartment in the city 8:27 And he was supposedly going to college and taking classes and he never attended 8:31 But school is a huge trigger for him like it is for so so many 8:34 You know you trigger in the way that it made him feel stupid 8:37 but he didn't like the interacting with other people. 8:40 He loved interacting with other people. 8:42 Richard was very, very funny. 8:45 He had this quick wit that would just come out 8:48 when you least expected it. 8:50 He was funny, he was charming, 8:52 he could talk to anybody, 8:54 and he was Ralph Lauren model, good looking, 8:56 but he had no idea. 8:58 He absolutely had no idea. 9:00 His self-esteem didn't feel that way. 9:03 It didn't. 9:04 No, it didn't. 9:05 So we ended up, he went to four Woods programs, 9:09 the Wilderness programs, which is like camping therapy, 9:13 but it can be a little intense. 9:15 Are these the ones where somebody would kidnap you 9:18 and take you where you don't know what's happening 9:22 and you go for 21 days 9:23 and at the end they really feel great about it, 9:27 but at the beginning they didn't know where they were going 9:28 or he knew that these were things he was gonna do. 9:30 He knew, these were things he was gonna do. 9:32 one time, the first time he went to wilderness therapy, he actually was in a 9:39 psych ward and because he was on a drug and he was again just acting very very 9:47 strange I was very concerned and took him and then that's where a couple guys 9:53 came and took him to a rehab right and unfortunately it sounds really really 9:59 harsh, but when you're a mother who is just looking for all the answers and 10:06 tirelessly research, research, research, whenever things would turn upside down it 10:12 was, okay, is there another rehab? Is there another therapeutic boarding 10:17 school? But no matter where he went, he always wanted to come home and he 10:23 wanted to be there until things got very out of control so as a young man he he 10:36 would do really really wild things one was he ran away from home when he was 10:44 well he's a little bit younger he was 17 at the time and I was going out of 10:48 town for a week. And he was going with the three kids to his 10:53 dad's and he didn't want to go. He wanted to stay alone. 17 10:57 year old who has a drug problem. Yeah, wanted to stay at 11:00 home. Sorry. And so I was like, that's not happening. So 11:05 Richard found a girl at the high school who knew of an 11:12 anarchy group. This is a crazy story because we are in a 11:17 conservative town her father was like a prominent doctor at the hospital and he of 11:21 course finds the one person in the entire school that knows this and she said 11:27 they can help you disappear you don't have to go anywhere this week so he went 11:35 with this girl to the city and I was supposed to be going away I thought he 11:40 was in school notice I was about to leave for the airport my money was 11:43 missing out of my wallet. And I was like, I knew it was Richard. I knew it was. It was 11:48 no one else. He had gone down to the city. They dyed his hair blonde. And he looked 11:55 a lot like Big Bird. 11:57 Oh my goodness. 11:58 And they smashed his phone, got him a go phone, and a new ID. And they put him on 12:04 a bus to New York City and gave him a list of groups in New York City that he could 12:09 stay with. So there he went, you know, thinking this is a really grand idea and he left and so 12:17 we didn't know where he was. Now let me ask you a question before you finish this story. 12:21 I'm curious what, and if you even know this, if you shared it with you, what he was running from, 12:26 what what the doctors or the therapy people were telling him was going on, you know, I, 12:30 listen, when I was 12, my mother sent me to a therapeutic boarding school. 12:36 during that therapeutic boarding school 12:38 in Running Springs, California, 12:40 which I did graduate from, 12:41 but it was pretty miserable being there. 12:42 I mean, the stuff you go through, 12:44 I was put on one of those wilderness adventures myself. 12:49 So I know from both perspectives, 12:51 me having gone through it, what that was like, 12:53 but also from a parent's perspective and my mother, 12:56 why she did it or why she thought she did it 12:59 or why the help, she had no other option. 13:01 I mean, she needed to figure out what the story was 13:04 and how to help, because as a single mother, 13:06 she didn't know what else to do. 13:08 But I'm just curious what you think 13:10 he was running from and towards. 13:13 Do you know what I mean? 13:14 By not going through the programs, 13:16 by not learning the lessons, 13:17 by not finishing, wanting to be in school, 13:20 or where do you feel like he wanted to be, do you think? 13:24 He wanted to party and he wanted to stay up seriously. 13:28 He didn't want to go to any more rehabs. 13:30 He just wanted to have fun with his friends 13:31 and he didn't want to be with a parent at the time. 13:35 He wanted to be on his own. 13:37 And when I said, no, you cannot stay alone, 13:41 he really at that time was all about the party, the drugs. 13:46 So it was a rebellion. 13:47 He just wanted to do it. 13:48 It was a rebellion and he was an addict. 13:51 So the addiction had started. 13:53 And so whatever he could do to find those friends, 13:58 and those friends, those drugs, the party, the fun, 14:03 whatever he could do at that time is what he did. 14:08 And so he ended up in New York, didn't know where he was. 14:13 He called the hotline. 14:15 Of course he's very dramatic to remember this about him. 14:18 And he loved shock and awe. 14:19 Like he didn't just borrow a friend's phone. 14:21 He ended up at a friend's college dorm room in New York 14:25 called the runaway hotline and got me on the phone 14:28 because it couldn't just be a regular phone right? Oh my gosh. So he said I'm sorry I want to come home 14:35 so he I did not send him a plane ticket I did not make it easy for him at that point I said 14:41 you got there on a bus so I'm sending you enough money for food and a bus ticket. 14:46 He took the bus and a train and ended up back at our house and two weeks later 14:54 as I was walking through my foyer, 14:57 kind of thinking, how is this my life, you know? 15:00 How did we get here? 15:01 How did I get here? 15:02 How did my kids get here? 15:05 I was sort of pausing and I look out the front window 15:08 and there's two black suburban's 15:11 that slowly pull up in front of my house. 15:14 And I'm like, is this like men in black? 15:17 Like what's happening? 15:18 And three people, two men and a woman got out in suits 15:24 with one with a briefcase. 15:26 And I'm like, is this some sort of punked? 15:29 I mean, am I being on, am I on YouTube? 15:31 What is happening? 15:33 And they came up to the front door and 15:39 FBI, we'd like to talk to Richard, please. 15:42 Oh gosh. 15:43 I'm like, you want to talk to Richard? 15:46 Next thing I know, Richard and his friend, hi, as kites are running 15:49 through the house, they jump in the car. 15:52 I'm like, don't leave. 15:54 He's like, I don't want to go to rehab again, mom. 15:56 Oh, he thought they were coming to get him to rehab. 15:58 Yes, I ran out the door and literally spread Eagle 16:01 on top of the car. 16:03 Like, Richard, you get out of that car right now. 16:06 I said, the FBI wants to talk to you. 16:08 Oh my gosh. 16:08 He goes, well, why didn't you tell him 16:10 we're not in the first place, mom? 16:12 Of course I want to talk to them. 16:14 He gets out. 16:15 Well, that was less scary than going to rehab. 16:18 Oh yeah. 16:18 Who knew what they were there for? 16:20 Did he? 16:20 He didn't know. 16:21 Right. He didn't know. 16:22 So he's like, I love to talk to the FBI because like this is so fun. 16:26 Like this is so fun. Right. 16:27 So he gets out and shakes their hand. 16:29 I'm Richard. It's nice to meet you. 16:31 One of them, I'm going to turn my beef stew off the stove 16:35 because it's like boiling over at this point. 16:37 And one follows me in the kitchen to go in the living room with Richard. 16:41 And I hear the words under cover. 16:47 And I ran into the living room 16:49 and Richard's got his arms up and he's talking and he they're sitting he's 16:53 holding court and he said mom they want me to go undercover in that anarchy 16:58 group isn't that cool yeah isn't that cool Richard over my dead body are you 17:06 doing that FBI thank you so much for visiting today here's the front door 17:11 right so that those types of stories happened from that time when he was 17:18 17 until the time you passed away 24. 17:21 I'm just curious of two things. 17:23 How was your ex-husband handling all this in his house 17:26 or coming over to your house? 17:28 What was his involvement? 17:29 And also the other two children, 17:32 because they weren't causing such a ruckus, 17:35 did they get forgotten during this 17:37 or they were very much involved with their brother 17:40 and figuring out what was going on? 17:43 They were sheltered from as much of it as I could 17:47 because I wanted them to have a more normal childhood. 17:52 So they were in school. 17:54 They were in school, you know, Nick was three years younger 17:58 than Richard and so he would get text messages like, 18:01 oh, I hear your brothers down on a yacht 18:03 with Wiz Khalifa in Lake Michigan. 18:06 And he'd be like, mom, you won't believe. 18:08 So I would get those types of stories and things. 18:11 But my daughter was very, very young. 18:13 She was like first, second, third grade. 18:15 Right. 18:16 So she doesn't remember a lot of it, 18:19 but she does remember when I told her 18:21 that we had a possum family living under our front steps 18:26 because there was Richard smoking a pot 18:29 on the side of the house. 18:30 And she's like, what's that smell? 18:31 I'm like, it's possums or skunks or something like that. 18:34 I'm not really sure, but we're just gonna leave them be 18:37 because they can live there. 18:38 And your ex-husband? 18:40 And my ex-husband. 18:41 He was involved. 18:42 involved. He was very involved with all three kids. He was always trying to get Richard healthy 18:49 and suggesting things to do. The other kids were really busy. Nick was playing hockey and 18:56 he played football and hockey and lacrosse and had great grades. But, you know, those 19:02 two flew under the radar and they did normal, like, sketchy kid things. The normal drinking 19:08 and having parties at my house. 19:10 You know, those normal things. 19:12 So they saw Richard as someone who was living the fast life, 19:14 not necessarily like he was a mess 19:16 and he was missing and he was. 19:19 As they got a little bit older, 19:20 well, Nicholas always knew that there was a problem. 19:23 And as my daughter got older, 19:25 she definitely after some of the shenanigans 19:29 or being in a rehab and walking out 19:31 after two days saying I'm cured, 19:33 she would say, Mom, he's just not making good choices. 19:37 So they did, they were very close to Richard when he was home. 19:43 I did have to kick him out once because the drugs were getting to be too much 19:48 and I didn't want them to affect the other kids. 19:51 So I did that as well. 19:53 So I know at some point Richard does take a turn and it gets clean. 19:58 How did that happen? 20:00 That happened really because almost the courts demanded it. 20:06 So, he had been using heroin, and I had no idea he was using heroin. 20:13 I know that might sound like I'm stupid, but I really did not know that that became his 20:19 drug of choice. 20:21 And he was home in his room in the suburbs because he always had a place. 20:26 And he was calling me at six in the morning. 20:29 my phone kept ringing and I picked it up and he whispered hospital and I ran up 20:37 stairs and he had a bucket and I just assumed he had the flu of course so I 20:42 grabbed him I grabbed the bucket and paper towel put him in the car drove to 20:46 the hospital and when they were taking him back now he was 21 at this point 20:51 when they were taking him back I always went back with them can your 20:55 mother come back, he went, no, no. And so they put me in one of those little rooms 21:02 where they tell you bad news. He was overdosing on heroin. And when I got to see 21:10 him, I mean, he knew enough to say, okay, yeah, he knew it. So they, he was in the 21:16 hospital for about five days. And of course, everyone at the hospital, the 21:19 social worker at the hospital was telling him it's not a matter of if 21:23 if it's when, if you keep on this path of using heroin. 21:26 And wait, and they must have been the ones 21:28 to tell you it was heroin, right? 21:30 Yes, one of the nurses came in, popped her head in, 21:34 and did say to me, your son's been on a five-day heroin binge, 21:39 and my heart dropped. 21:41 And then I felt stupid that I didn't know that, 21:44 but how would I know? 21:45 He was living in the city. 21:47 He had come back late at night and showed up. 21:51 Maybe he knew something's wrong. 21:52 I don't know. So after that happened and he came home and I'm nursing him to health and 21:57 we're watching movies together and really bonding. He took shower, got dressed. He said, 22:05 used to say, love you mom, I'll be safe. He got up and he two days later was leaving. 22:12 And I literally got down on my hands and knees and beg, like beg Tim, don't leave something 22:20 Something bad's gonna happen if you leave. 22:21 Oh, no, mom, I'm cool, I'm safe. 22:23 I'll be safe, love you. 22:26 So I stayed awake all night and sure enough at 5 a.m., 22:29 I did get a call from the jail in Chicago at 27th 22:33 and whatever that is, it's a very bad place. 22:38 And he said, you know, come get me. 22:41 So I went and he got out and I said, 22:47 it is his bottom, have you hit bottom now? 22:49 And he was like, ugh, mom. 22:51 They were calling me Bieber, Justin Bieber in there. 22:54 They're like, hey, Bieber, what are you doing in here? 22:56 And he just laughed, he thought that was funny. 22:58 The court date came, I still wanna hug the judge. 23:03 She said, welcome to the world of felonies 23:05 where your life is no longer your own. 23:08 It's mine, I still wanna hug her. 23:13 We got permission to go- 23:15 And that scared him enough is what you're saying. 23:16 He wished I could see him like shaking up there, you know, and I was there and we asked if he could leave the state to go to 23:23 Hazelton, Minnesota 23:25 It's a place. I always wanted him to go and 23:29 The judge offered him and there's an eight month rehabilitation program in Chicago 23:34 They would rather rehabilitate than put people in jail obviously 23:38 So he did go to Hazelton and she said of course what's gonna happen after that well 23:46 he got his help and he went to Hazelton and he got sober and he was sober for... 24:16 All for less than the price of your daily coffee habit. 24:19 The Irish Times for just five-year-old month, 24:22 the ultimate student discount. 24:24 The last three years of his life. 24:29 Quick break here, folks, because I 24:31 have to tell you this conversation doesn't 24:33 end when the episode does. 24:35 Some of my favorite moments never make the public podcast. 24:38 They happen after we stop recording, behind the scenes, 24:41 or in conversations that are just 24:43 a little too personal for the regular show. 24:45 That's exactly what you'll find on Patreon, 24:48 Depending on your membership, 24:49 you'll get exclusive bonus episodes, 24:52 my weekly Palm Beach Life series, 24:54 behind-the-scenes content, monthly mystery box giveaways, 24:57 and even the opportunity to book a one-on-one video call 25:01 with me about whatever is on your mind. 25:03 If you've ever wished you could be part of the conversation 25:06 instead of just listening to it, this is your chance. 25:09 Join us at patreon.com slash misunderstood 25:12 with Rachel Yucatel. 25:16 Wow. 25:17 Which was a huge, huge gift to our family. 25:20 He stayed in St. Paul, Minnesota because a lot of people do, they don't want you to go 25:25 back to your old friends and your old habits, so he had a great life there. 25:32 He was sober, he had a great job, he was managing a few GNC stores, and was really 25:40 doing well, from what I could tell. 25:43 And had found someone he wanted to spend his life with, which obviously gave him 25:49 some sense of purpose, and especially if that person wasn't using, that's somebody that 25:55 probably was helping him stay clean. 25:58 Yes. 25:59 So he had met a woman in Chicago years before who, they were very close friends. 26:06 And she moved to Las Vegas and became a dancer and made great money out there. 26:12 And then she started visiting Richard in St. Paul. 26:16 And they fell in love and got engaged and Richard had come out to me when he was 26:22 21 that he was gay. I had no idea as close as we were and no idea and you know 26:28 of course he pulled the the hi mom he called me mom if some I have a friend 26:33 who's gay like do you think his mom would want to know? I was like yes I 26:37 think it's mom. Yes and he said well I'm gay and I was so relieved I was so 26:44 happy that he came out with this truth because I felt like there was something in him that 26:50 just there. 26:51 What was it? 26:51 Right. 26:52 That maybe this was what he was running from, didn't know how to handle and maybe the telling 26:57 you this could really help him. 26:59 Yes. 26:59 And it did. 27:00 And he wanted advice on how to tell everybody. 27:04 And we talked about it and you know, we all, we loved him, you know, unconditionally 27:10 obviously. 27:10 So they got engaged and it turns out that Maria was a transgender so she was 27:20 born Edward and made a full full transition with all the surgeries was 27:24 very very I thought she was a very very brave person to do that because it's 27:31 so painful and you know there's just you have to really really want to make 27:37 that change. So if you really connected with someone who had been through 27:40 or something, and I'm sure that that resonated with him 27:45 and that's part of their connection, it seems. 27:49 It seems, and I wondered, I didn't get a chance 27:52 to ask him why he wasn't marrying a man, 27:55 why he was marrying her, but I just didn't get the chance. 28:00 I think it's probably because sometimes it's easier, 28:04 I've been told, to present as male and female. 28:08 I believe that that's what it was for him 28:10 And he fell in love with her, right? 28:12 So there was, he was very much in love with her. 28:15 And so, you know, he wanted to get married at our home 28:20 in Lake Forest Illinois in the backyard. 28:22 And I'm a little bit of a Martha Stewart kind of a girl 28:26 I like to entertain. 28:28 So I was very, I was thrilled. 28:32 I was thrilled that he seemed to be getting better 28:37 and making a nice life for himself. 28:41 But I didn't want him to move to Las Vegas 28:44 because I kept telling him that that's a place 28:48 that you might not be able to stay sober. 28:51 Right, right. 28:52 So at the time where things turn in your family, 28:59 everything seemed great. 29:01 Everything seemed great. 29:03 So no red flags. 29:05 There were no red flags. 29:05 there were green flags, you know, it was him, 29:10 he sent me the night before. 29:13 He sent me a photo of himself wearing his top ciders. 29:18 He was kind of a preppy dresser 29:19 and his little ruffler and shirt. 29:21 And he said, and grillin' vegan sausages, 29:24 listenin' to Barry White with some cheap box of wine, 29:27 you know, and it's a great day. 29:29 And it was a great photo. 29:31 And I thought maybe, maybe my boy is taking these baby steps, 29:37 maybe at a beautiful condo, they had a room for me, 29:42 which I thought was cool. 29:44 And he felt, it felt like he was finally finding his place. 29:51 Yeah. 29:54 Can I go forward? 29:55 Yeah. 29:57 The next day, his fiance found him taken 30:02 by suicide. She called me frantic, told me which hospital he went to. And I called the 30:13 hospital and waited a long time. And the doctor got on and said, what do you know? And I said, 30:22 I know he tried to, at the time, take his own life. And he said, there's no easy way to tell you 30:30 with that, your son died tonight. 30:33 I'm so sorry, thank you. 30:36 So let's talk about, I don't wanna live in that space 30:41 for very long, but I know that a lot of people 30:44 have been through something like this, 30:46 can understand what you were feeling in that moment. 30:48 Can you just share a little bit about what it's like 30:49 to get a call like that, to know that from that moment 30:53 on, your life will never be the same? 30:56 I thought that the doctor was wrong. 30:59 I was sort of thinking, what is he talking about? 31:03 What does that mean? 31:05 I just thought he was wrong. 31:07 But then part of me believed him 31:09 because I went into shock for a very, very long time. 31:14 How did you end up telling your younger children? 31:19 They were in Nashville, Tennessee, visiting their dad. 31:22 So he had to tell them and then they had to fly home. 31:27 And I remember my son saying, Mom, why are you so calm? 31:35 And I don't know why. 31:37 I think I was just, I never knew what Chuck was. 31:39 You just, you're just kind of numb and you're just kind of like a robot. 31:43 But I have to tell you, so Richard was so funny that within two days after he died, 31:50 he had us in stitches, which sounds weird. 31:53 We went to the cemetery to pick up a spot. 31:57 My mom and dad are divorced. 31:59 My mom and dad were never in the same room together 32:01 for like 26 years. 32:03 They were both there holding my hands. 32:05 My husband was there. 32:07 And my ex-husband, Richard's dad, was there. 32:10 And I'm looking around like, this is different. 32:14 And we're looking, you know, and we found a spot. 32:18 And then my mom said, you know, 32:20 would you mind if I buy a spot? 32:22 Oh, sure, mom. I said to my husband, let's buy a spot too. Right here, we'll be together. 32:27 And then my ex-husband says, oh, well, my wife doesn't care what we're buried. Let's, you know, 32:34 we'll be next to Tony. We'll smoke cigars. And then my dad said, well, there's a tree over here, 32:40 but could they cut the roots of this tree so my wife and I could be over here? And my mom 32:46 leaned over to me and she said, I'm gonna be with my ex-husband and you're gonna be 32:52 with your ex-husband for eternity. 32:55 And I looked up and I said, 32:57 Richard, you just played out the funniest 33:00 Seinfeld episode ever. 33:02 Absolutely. 33:03 And it was the only thing that made us laugh 33:05 to the point where when we were at home 33:08 and someone would tell the story, 33:10 like literally we were laughing crying. 33:12 It really brought us comic relief and 33:16 And brought you together. 33:17 And brought us all together. 33:18 And he has since that day, 33:19 We are together for all birthdays and celebrations and he always wondered, you know, why can't they be together? 33:25 They should be together. Well, right. They're together now, right? 33:29 So I want to talk about grief for a second everybody grieves differently 33:34 Depending on what they're going through who they've lost how the loss happens 33:39 But it's a universal feeling and I think there are steps in that grief like you said you don't believe it wait 33:46 This doesn't make sense. This can't be 33:49 into stages where there's a lot of numbness 33:53 and also fear of having regular things happen. 33:57 Eating, is that okay? 33:58 Laughing, is that okay? 34:01 Feeling almost guilty about that stuff. 34:04 When I was younger, I was 15 and I was at boarding school. 34:08 I was at that therapeutic boarding school 34:10 that I mentioned earlier. 34:14 It's interesting that you gave me something 34:15 about butterflies because somehow in a conversation there was a girl at the 34:20 school whose father had died by suicide now that I'm thinking about it and she 34:26 talked a lot about when you see a butterfly it's a soul and she came to 34:31 get me during lunch this girl Jennifer I haven't thought about the story in 34:35 very a long time but Jennifer came at our lunch break at this therapeutic 34:39 boarding school where there's rigid rigid rules and that's the only time 34:44 you could run up to get extra clothes, a sweatshirt, whatever, and you have to 34:48 always be accompanied by someone. And I was just old enough in the school, I'd 34:51 been there a year and a half, so I could go by myself. So I ran up to the dorm, was 34:55 getting a sweatshirt, and Jennifer walks in and says, Tim, the headmaster wants 35:00 to speak to you. So I walked down with her, and you have to walk down 35:05 this path. And all these butterflies were circling around, and she 35:09 she stops and she said, did you see that? 35:12 And I said, yeah. 35:14 And she was like trying to hold in tears 35:17 because she knew what they were about to tell me, 35:19 but I didn't, you know? 35:20 And anyway, so I walk into my headmaster's room 35:24 and he essentially says, your father died. 35:29 And I didn't know how to take that. 35:32 I was very quiet and it didn't hit me. 35:35 And just a fast word of the story, 35:36 I remember for at least a month and this was very similar when my fiance was 35:42 killed for at least a month you know you have so many people around you yes so 35:45 many things going on it's hard to find a moment where you are just in that grief 35:49 and that misery and that loneliness and it with my father especially I remember 35:56 it was like almost a month later I was in the shower and it just hit me out 36:02 of nowhere and I started crying, 36:05 thinking this loss is really big. 36:07 I'm gonna go through my life without this person in my life. 36:10 How do I do that? 36:12 And that was the first time I had to go through something 36:14 like that as a young child and that was a terrible loss. 36:18 And to this day, listen, I mean, I've done many things 36:21 to kind of deal with the loss of having a fiancee killed, 36:26 losing a father to a cocaine overdose, 36:30 which essentially was an overdose, but really I think it was somewhat similar to a suicide 36:40 in the way that he was killing himself. He knew what could happen and he did it for whatever 36:45 reasons. He couldn't face the pain, he couldn't feel that pain, couldn't feel good in his 36:50 own body, which I want to hear from you because I know you say it in a great way 36:53 or in a way that people can understand. And so that grief process for me has been 36:58 many years. For many years I avoided it. I ignored it. For many years I, you know, I 37:03 flip-flopped that pain into other things. I ran in a different direction and ran 37:08 from it. I got into terrible relationships from it. I, you know, all 37:12 these different things. But finally now, you know, I'm turning 50 this month, I've 37:16 really learned what grief is and you have to sit in it. You know, you 37:22 have to live in it. For me, I don't know that that grief ever leaves when 37:26 when I talk about losing my fiance, I was 26 at the time. 37:30 I've lived just as long, now I'm gonna be 50, like I said, 37:34 and I was only with him, he was in my life for three years. 37:38 It's taken this long, the emotion is still in my throat 37:42 when I talk about that loss. 37:44 And who knows what would have happened 37:45 if life had gone on, we could have been divorced, 37:48 hated each other, never spoken again. 37:51 But that grief can stump you in life. 37:56 You can get stuck in it and it can prevent you 38:00 from living either the life that you could, should, want to 38:05 and for me it was like stuck up here. 38:07 Anyway, so I just wanted to share that with you 38:09 about my lessons of grief 38:11 and I've learned you have to live alongside of it somewhat. 38:14 You have to, it doesn't go away. 38:16 You have to learn how to live with it 38:17 And also it's interesting for me how to talk to people with it because you know 38:21 There's so many people are like oh, what can I do? Can I you know, let me know if I could do these things for me? 38:27 I've learned 38:28 Someone should just do it, you know if they're gonna bring the food if they're gonna drive just don't ask 38:33 Yeah, because you will never say yes, right and also, you know those comments of like oh, they're in a better place 38:40 That's not necessarily helpful. That is okay 38:42 So 100% agree. First, I'd like to say I am so sorry for two unbelievably catastrophic 38:49 losses in your life. And it does take years. You have to do the work. Yeah. And sometimes 38:57 we avoid the work, right? We put it in a box to the left and don't talk about it. Don't 39:02 think about it and just but it comes and then it'll come crashing down on you. 39:06 So the things people say are unbelievable. 39:11 People, I believe, have a great intention and a good heart, 39:16 but the worst thing that someone said to me was, 39:21 no one's getting out of here alive. 39:23 Oh, right. 39:24 Yeah, that's, yeah. 39:25 A terrible thing for me. 39:25 That's a terrible thing to say. 39:27 Well, we're all gonna die. 39:28 We're all gonna die, so it would have happened. 39:30 Yeah, it would have happened at some point, okay. 39:32 Exactly. 39:34 Or he's in a better place 39:36 and then in my mind, I would never say it, 39:38 but in my head, I'm like, have you seen the other place? 39:40 Like, what does it look like? 39:41 Right, right. 39:43 But I think people should just stop it 39:45 after they say, I'm sorry. 39:46 Stop after, I'm sorry, is how I have felt? 39:50 And affirm their feelings. 39:51 This is terrible. 39:52 No one should have to live through this. 39:53 Yes. 39:54 You know, I understand what you're feeling, you know. 39:57 Those are the things I think you should say. 39:59 Yes, so as far as grief, I... 40:03 Wait one second for the, 40:04 Okay, sorry for the sound. 40:07 I don't know if you guys can hear that sound, 40:09 but I'm gonna wait. 40:11 Okay. 40:19 Sounds like they're apprehending the guy 40:22 right down the street for stopping so abruptly. 40:25 Yes. 40:26 Okay, go ahead, sorry. 40:27 So, 40:29 shortly after I lost Richard, 40:32 I went to see a grief therapist 40:34 and she was actually a suicide grief therapist, 40:37 which is really what I needed at the time. 40:39 And she, what grief counseling taught me was so valuable. 40:50 She gave me a schedule that I should follow 40:53 because you sort of have to learn how to get out of bed, 40:57 how to eat, how to do things again 41:00 because you're so overwhelmed by this huge, huge loss. 41:05 And the other thing that she taught me 41:08 was, and I think this can help people, that a person that leaves by suicide, it's like 41:16 there's a fire burning inside of them. 41:18 And they just, it goes on, the pain goes on for so, so long. 41:24 They have to do the only thing they know how to do. 41:27 And that's to leave the pain behind. 41:28 Right. 41:30 And the other thing that, I mean, therapy was vital in me getting out there again. 41:40 You know, I kind of thought, was there something I could do? 41:44 And I think a lot of people have guilt about what could I have done? 41:51 What years and years of work taught me after walking in my grief, talking in my grief, 41:56 sitting in my grief doing all the grief, grief work, you know, you kind of go, well, why didn't 42:02 these programs help him? Right. Why couldn't his the unrelenting love of all of his family 42:08 help him? And he was getting married, you know, he he had this life he had built. But 42:16 what therapy taught me is that his suicide was unstoppable. Wow. That's really powerful. 42:25 I think there are a lot of misconceptions about suicide. 42:29 Some people say people are doing it for attention, 42:31 for all sorts of reasons, but what you're saying 42:34 really makes it clear, at least in this case, 42:36 it was something that no matter what, 42:38 in his good moments, in his bad moments, 42:40 that pain was still there and he couldn't get rid of it. 42:43 And it was a decision he felt like he really had to make. 42:46 They, he felt, he couldn't live on drugs 42:51 and he couldn't live sober because he lived both ways 42:53 movies, and he lived both ways in pain. 42:55 And I always hear when you see these programs about suicide or these even made for TV movies 43:00 at the end, it says, say something to someone, just tell someone, call this hotline. 43:05 But for people really struggling with this, it seems like that's almost, you know, not 43:10 a realistic thing because they are keeping this to themselves because they're planning 43:14 this out. 43:14 It's something they want to do. 43:16 It's something they want to do. 43:16 He planned, I believe, that whole very white listening to very white and smiling and, you know, 43:24 acting really happy. He knew what he was going to do and there was evidence found in his apartment 43:30 that he was planning it. And then when I got his phone and I went through his phone, 43:35 he was planning it. 43:37 Isn't that interesting after the fact to try to put the pieces together? I mean, 43:40 I've done that now in two situations and, you know, to look at their phones to, 43:46 you know my father didn't have they didn't have phones back then but like 43:49 that but but it was more looking at notes looking so two days after they let 43:54 me leave the therapeutic boarding school and go to his house and I was looking 43:57 where things were I was seeing what was in the shower I was seeing what was on 44:01 his bedside table and to kind of put those pieces together really was 44:05 helpful for me I mean I didn't realize it till later but it was a sense of 44:08 closure I needed to know what he saw I needed to know where he was at 44:13 the smells, the sounds, what was going on outside the window. 44:16 I don't know. 44:16 It just for me made me feel closer. 44:18 So did that help you kind of with getting a feeling of being closer to him 44:22 because you were in the same place he was? 44:24 Yes. Yeah. Yes. 44:26 It answered a lot of questions. 44:28 I also have stayed close friends 44:31 with a really cute family that he was friends with. 44:35 And they've weren't able to have children and now they have four. 44:38 So Richard didn't know any of that, but he was very close with them 44:42 and they live in St. Paul and visit me with their kids and I feel they feel connected to 44:46 him and I feel connected to them and it's been a really, really great relationship. Yeah. Too 44:52 hard to see the fiance. I did that a few times and yeah, we both just got really upset and I 44:59 tried doing it with a couple of my friends just not one on one and it was still the same 45:03 and we both agreed that it would be better for us, both of us on our journey. She used to 45:09 come up and leave roses on his, white roses on his grave. 45:14 So I always knew when she was there, 45:16 but I always wish her well and happiness, 45:20 but she and I are a little bit better this way. 45:23 Right. 45:24 It's interesting after my fiance died, 45:26 there was a lot of people that had blame, 45:27 even though terrorists were what killed my fiance, 45:30 but for whatever reason that was blamed. 45:33 So I was never close to the family, 45:35 which to this day still is upsetting to me 45:39 because those are the people you think 45:41 should be the closest to you 45:42 and understand what that loss is like. 45:45 I'm still friends with some of the guys 45:46 who were not at work that day 45:48 that he worked with that got out of the building, 45:50 whatever it is. 45:51 And to me that, I mean, that's great. 45:54 But it is hard because everyone does wanna blame somebody 45:57 and everyone has their own feelings about what happened 46:00 and or sometimes it's just too hard 46:01 to be around someone who was there, you know. 46:04 Yeah, yeah. 46:05 All right, I wanna talk about finding joy after this 46:08 because I know you've done the work and I want to get into that for people to listen to because 46:12 some people are listening to this and thinking okay well I'm in this I know these feelings 46:16 you know people say with time it eases pain but I can't get out of bed whatever I'm stuck 46:23 explain what pivotal moments you went through or created for yourself to make the path for 46:29 that joy for yourself to learn how to live again after this loss 46:33 Well the first year was very fuzzy but I ended up walking. I ended up just every 46:40 day getting up and I would go for a walk and you know at the time I was living in 46:47 Chicago year-round and I would you know in the middle of the winter I would 46:51 just put the clothes on and get out there and walk six miles and I would 46:56 make it to we live on a lake at Lake Forest and I would walk my goal was to 47:02 walk to the lake, which was six miles from my house. The water was very soothing. The 47:08 sounds, the air, the fresh air, that was my first step in and really starting to 47:16 try to live again. And then I started to see amazing signs and tell me about some 47:25 of those. Some of the signs. Well, I will tell you that monarch butterflies 47:30 visit me all the time, if I'm at the cemetery. 47:34 The first, my first birthday after Richard left, 47:38 friends of mine picked me up and we went down to 47:40 a restaurant that was on the eighth floor 47:42 of outdoor restaurant in Chicago. 47:45 And I was just sort of sitting there, 47:48 ordered tofu because Richard would have, 47:51 and all of a sudden this huge marak butterfly comes, 47:55 circles my head, 47:58 Cirque dances around the table, circles the table, 48:01 dances around my head again, and then flutters off. 48:05 And I said, I looked up and I said, 48:07 did everyone see that? 48:09 And they were, we were all in shock. 48:11 Yeah, we were all in shock. 48:13 So the butterfly, I wear a butterfly every day 48:15 that my mom gave me. 48:17 The butterfly is definitely, 48:18 and I know a lot of people are comforted 48:20 by maybe a squirrel or a cardinal. 48:24 And that is very comforting, very, very comforting. 48:30 And so signs started coming 48:33 and they were pretty, pretty incredible. 48:37 And you believe in these signs, they help comfort you. 48:42 I believe in the signs because I believe 48:46 that there's an unstoppable power of love 48:51 love and love is unstoppable and love is around all the time and even in death and even in 49:03 your grief. 49:04 Yeah. 49:05 And that's very comforting. 49:06 Yeah. 49:07 And finding joy, you know, for a long time feeling guilt when I would start to just feel 49:13 a little teeny bit of joy, I go, no, no, I can't, nope, I can't smile, I can't 49:17 that because I'm in grief. And then you just do the work. Yeah. And you find joy again. 49:27 I went on a sixtieth birthday trip with 16 women from around the country that have been 49:32 friends for almost new friends from Florida, but all my life. Yeah. And it was the first 49:40 time that I can say I laughed for four days and didn't feel guilty about it. Right. 49:45 And it was talk about therapeutic. 49:49 Yeah, yeah. 49:49 Yeah. 49:51 You've talked about walking, 49:52 you've talking about, you know, 49:54 finding some strategies to like get out of bed. 49:56 What would you say are some coping mechanisms, 49:58 like tangible things that people that are stuck 50:00 could do to move forward? 50:04 Well, the therapy, obviously, the walking, 50:07 I do have a book that really changed my life. 50:11 Oh yeah, talk about that. 50:12 I actually have one. 50:13 I wanna see it, yeah. 50:25 No, that's okay. 50:26 It's Healing Afterloss by Martha J. Hickman, 50:29 and it's daily meditations for working through your grief. 50:33 So there's... 50:36 And I know you've given this book to so many people. 50:38 Yes. 50:38 You've lived by it. 50:39 I lived by this book because it took me a long time 50:42 to pick, you know, people give you so many great books. 50:45 Yeah. 50:46 And I put them in a pile, you know, 50:48 kind of like, why am I gonna do that? 50:50 Like, really kind of books didn't seem 50:52 like they would be a thing. And one day I picked healing after loss up and I opened it up to 50:59 the day. There's a day there is a little quote from someone and then there's a meditation 51:04 or an inspirational message. And I sat down in my garden room and opened it up and something 51:12 shifted in me. I can't explain it because everything in the world looked the same. 51:18 but something shifted in me. 51:21 So I kept up with the book. 51:23 I actually, eight years now, 51:25 I've been reading this book every day. 51:27 It's been amazing. 51:29 I've sent it to, the first time I sent it 51:32 was when another family lost, lost a son. 51:35 And I wrote a quote, 51:37 I wrote in the beginning of the book, 51:40 may this book bring you comfort in your own time, 51:46 because everybody has to do it in their own time. 51:48 That's right. 51:50 And after I sent that book, a month later, 51:54 someone else had passed away. 51:56 It was a family I didn't know. 51:57 I sent the book. 51:59 And then in the ensuing months, 52:01 I went on to send the book, sign that way 52:03 to people I knew and to people I didn't know. 52:06 And it gave me such a sense of accomplishment, 52:11 getting this really amazing book into the hands of people 52:16 who I thought could use it. 52:19 And I ended up ordering my first case 52:23 and it felt like a purpose. 52:25 It felt like, as I said, such an accomplishment. 52:30 Then the thank you notes came, 52:32 which of course they did, 52:33 but I wasn't even thinking about thank you notes. 52:36 And I put them in a heart shaped box 52:39 that I was a gift, I got a gift from our good friend Epi Letter who is known to the world 52:46 as Anne Landers. 52:47 She was a very close friend of ours and it was special to put the thank you notes in 52:53 her box and then I would keep the box of thank you notes in the books, in the foyer 52:58 in our home and every time I walked in and out of the house I really felt the circle 53:01 of giving and the circle of purpose and I still feel it today. 53:06 So, a lot of people talk about how life is different from the day someone dies or that 53:16 loss, whatever it is for someone that they're grieving. 53:19 And there was life before, and then there's life after. 53:23 And what I think is interesting and sort of a summary of how you continue on in life 53:29 after is finding purpose, which is where I think you are now when you're talking 53:33 about the book. You've been doing a lot of work with different, what would you call them? 53:40 Like the communities or within people that have lost someone to suicide and helping. I mean community 53:47 seems like it is such a big thing in helping with the grief. Grief and you know it's a grief of a 53:54 mother, father, son, whoever. There is so much you know there's so many survivors in the world 54:03 And if I can get out into the world 54:05 and they can take one thing away, 54:07 that is, then I've done my job. 54:10 It's just become my purpose. 54:12 Right. 54:13 So talk about, you've been working on a book for a while. 54:16 Yes. 54:17 Talk about that book. 54:18 I've been working on a book. 54:20 I call it Unstoppable. 54:22 Great name. 54:23 Thank you. 54:23 Now that you told that story too, Unstoppable. 54:26 I think it's a great name. 54:27 Thank you. 54:28 It's the story of a son's wild ride with addiction 54:31 and a mother's journey from grief to joy. 54:36 And it starts, you know, through, 54:40 really when Richard was very, very young 54:42 and goes, you know, in all of, as I said, his shenanigans, 54:46 I make fun of myself in the book a lot, 54:48 so it's not a Debbie Downer book. 54:51 It actually has a lot of humor in it. 54:53 And he doesn't pass away until like three quarters 54:57 of the way through the book 54:58 because he had such a large life. 55:00 If we had a large life together and passes away, okay, that's sad. 55:06 And then when all the nudges I call the butterflies coming and signs that I call them nudges, 55:15 when you get these nudges, it's magic. 55:20 Yeah. 55:21 I want to also share one thing about, for me, what I found is after Andy, my fiance 55:27 once they died, I spent a ton of time living my life 55:33 acting like he was supposed to be there. 55:35 So like if I was in a cab in New York City, 55:36 he should have been sitting next to me. 55:38 We would get past the date that we were supposed to, 55:40 you know, have our wedding. 55:42 We were supposed to do that that day. 55:44 And I found that I was living life not being in the moment, 55:48 you know, really being in the, 55:50 it should have been this way, 55:51 like going down a side street of what my life was 55:55 was currently and I couldn't find the way 55:57 to be present in the moment. 55:59 And I won't get into the story, but something happened. 56:01 A year later, I had to leave work 56:03 and go sort of on this retreat by myself 56:05 and I woke up in the middle of the night 56:07 and I realized I found a way to believe 56:14 that Andy died when he was supposed to die, 56:17 that I couldn't live my life thinking, 56:18 well, he was supposed to be 80, 56:19 we were supposed to be married for all these years 56:21 and all these kids, it was so important for me to learn 56:24 and this is his life, that is the life he was given. 56:26 He lived the best life, there was ups and downs 56:29 like any other life, and he died, 56:33 he went out with a bang, and he died knowing 56:36 how loved he was. 56:37 I knew that he knew I loved him, 56:39 and that was really important, 56:40 and it sounds like Richard was in a place 56:42 where he knew all these people were at peace 56:44 with not worrying that he was gonna ruin his life, 56:47 that he was at a space where he knew 56:49 how much he was loved. 56:50 He knew, and family members had been out to visit him 56:53 and said, my father was there with his wife and they said, wow, we're the best in earth 56:58 of maturity. He's really found himself. He's come such a long way. And, and that brings 57:05 people comfort too. You know, just thinking of those, you know, if you can eventually, 57:12 you know, bring back those, those memories and really cherish the memories, it's, 57:17 it's an important step. 57:20 And wow, like you coming to the conclusion 57:22 that that's when he was supposed to pass away. 57:25 It was huge and it's huge. 57:27 Huge, but also, you know, when I think about it, you know, 57:31 the pain that Richard was feeling 57:32 or other people that, you know, take their lives, 57:37 it seems, and even people that are killed, whatever, 57:40 I think about it often when I hear these stories 57:43 and they're dealing with their own pain. 57:45 They're dealing with whatever they are going through, 57:46 but if they had to think, oh my gosh, 57:48 my mother is gonna have to go through life. 57:51 That may have kept him alive for quite a while, 57:53 but you know, at some point. 57:54 You probably did for a while. 57:56 Yeah, at some point, his own pain overcame him. 57:59 But, you know, knowing that you were gonna suffer 58:03 would have probably been a terrible thing for him. 58:05 So to know that from him being able to, 58:10 you know, do what he needed to do, 58:12 that you are still going to find a purpose 58:15 and be able to live is probably really important to you 58:18 in your healing that you could find something from it 58:21 and not just also die, you know. 58:25 And so, you know, you tell me a story earlier that I loved 58:29 and it was about signs and about someone you knew 58:32 who also had lost a child. 58:35 Can you tell that story? 58:36 I love that story. 58:37 Okay, I'm gonna tell the story. 58:41 So another family that we were really, really close to, 58:45 the kids grew up with. I had three children, they had three children as couples. We were 58:50 friends and the dads would take the six children skiing over presents day, weekend, every year. 58:57 So our kids really, really knew each other. And this friend had a little boutique and had 59:06 wonderful, it was like a bakery boutique and had these cute little trinket trays. At the 59:10 time Richard was living in St. Paul, I look down and I see this tray that says 59:14 you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take by Wayne Gretzky. An 59:19 amazing, amazing quote. So I thought I'm gonna get this for Richard. I gave it to 59:24 him, he went, wow cool mom and he kept it on his nightstand for the rest of his 59:29 life. After he passed I got a box from his apartment and opened the box and 59:35 and the tray was there. 59:37 I had forgotten about the tray. 59:39 I hugged the tray, walked around with the tray. 59:42 It was just very silly, but I was so happy. 59:45 So my friend, where I bought this tray at, 59:50 moved to California with her family. 59:55 And a few years passed 59:59 and she called me and said that unfortunately, 60:02 And sadly, her daughter left by suicide 60:06 and she didn't know what to do. 60:08 Anne-Marie, what do I do? 60:10 So I went, I went to see her, 60:16 actually was on and got on the airplane 60:18 with my little granny glasses and my needle point. 60:22 And this man got on last minute 60:26 and sat down right next to me 60:28 and just was chatting with me. 60:29 And I said to him, 60:30 Are you like a doctor or something? 60:32 And he said, well, I had a practice 60:36 and I ran a psych ward for 20 years, 60:38 but now I'm doing radio and TV. 60:40 And I was like, good for you. 60:43 So he said that, and I said, 60:46 well, you're gonna be so sorry you sat next to me 60:48 on this plane, right? 60:49 Because it's four hours from Chicago to LA 60:52 and yeah, there's a lot of talking to happen. 60:56 He talked to me the entire time. 60:58 I'm texting my friends, 60:59 like, I don't know who this guy is. 61:02 My one friend said, does he have black hair or gray hair 61:07 and dark glasses? 61:08 And I said, yeah. 61:09 She goes, Emery, everybody knows Dr. Drew Pinsky. 61:12 And that's who was sitting next to me. 61:14 And he could not have been more delightful, heartwarming. 61:19 He gave me the courage to sit in my friend's grief 61:22 and not my own because I didn't know how to do that. 61:26 I'm forever grateful for him to being there. 61:29 and again, not a coincidence. 61:31 Right. 61:31 We were meant to be together for four hours. 61:34 Drew is an amazing, he's a good friend of mine. 61:36 He's an amazing, amazing person. 61:38 Yep. 61:39 I think so too, with my short. 61:41 And by the way, when I got off the plane he goes, 61:43 my name's Drew by the way. 61:44 And I'm like, oh, I'm a Marine. 61:46 We laughed. 61:47 I think everybody else was like rolling their eyes, 61:49 but that was funny. 61:51 So I get to my friend's house 61:53 and we were sitting outside with a beautiful sunset 61:56 And we had Chinese food and we had the fortune cookies after and I opened my fortune cookie 62:03 and it said, you have good friends, you know, kind of silly. 62:06 So we were like, ugh. 62:07 And then my friend opened hers and her fortune said, you miss 100% of the shots you don't 62:18 take. 62:21 so after we were stunned for a long time I said you know Richard and your 62:29 daughter are up in heaven like bantering giggling back and forth I wait did this 62:35 woman remember that this was the the plate you had bought yes for her store 62:38 yes she did and I was like they're bantering back and forth they're 62:42 laughing like which mom's gonna get it like you know and Morgan clearly won 62:47 It's okay. 62:48 And her daughter clearly won. 62:50 And we just, that, if that is not a nudge, 62:56 I don't know what is, it was miraculous. 62:58 We had goosebumps. 63:00 We were laughing, crying. 63:02 And then she asked me, what's the shot you haven't taken? 63:08 And I said the book. 63:11 I need to put this all down. 63:14 Right. 63:14 Okay, so this is your purpose and will be 63:16 until it gets published. 63:18 Yes, yes. 63:19 Tell me about your life now, you're married. 63:22 I'm married to a really amazing man 63:25 who I actually, and I met on match.com, 63:29 which is a weird thing. Amazing. 63:31 That's a whole nother episode. 63:32 That's a whole nother episode. 63:34 Needle in a Haystack story. 63:35 When did you meet him during this whole process? 63:38 I met him, we got married in 2012, 63:40 So I met him in 2010, and he was around for a lot of this. 63:49 Yes. 63:49 So he had two girls and a boy, and I had two girls and a boy. 63:53 And so at our wedding, I had the children pose like the Brady Bunch. 63:58 And our Christmas card was the Brady Bunch with Alice in the middle. 64:02 And so that's how I explain our family. 64:05 We're a modern day Brady Bunch. 64:07 and we have a great life together. 64:11 He's obviously ups and downs, 64:13 and he's very, very, very supportive. 64:16 And he was my rock when Richard passed, rock. 64:20 And we are now living in Florida a lot of the time, 64:26 but also have our home in Chicago as well, so. 64:30 And how are the kids doing, your children? 64:33 My kids are doing great. 64:34 My daughter is in DC getting her masters 64:37 and public health, healthcare policy. 64:41 Right, amazing. 64:42 And do you think that what happened with their brother, 64:46 was that something that affected them, 64:48 changed the outcome of their lives? 64:50 Yes, definitely. 64:52 So for my daughter, she went through, 64:54 she did a lot of trauma therapy when it happened. 64:58 She also has a calling with, 65:01 she worked at a camp that has severely disabled campers 65:08 and she ended up running that. 65:10 Oh wow, so she's good with empathy and patience. 65:12 Yes, yes, and she volunteers a lot 65:15 and volunteering has really given her a lot of peace 65:22 and she's just very, very busy. 65:26 And my son, I'm actually a grandmother. 65:29 Oh, congratulations. 65:30 Thank you my son lives with his wife in Nashville and little Owen and he's no 65:38 he's joy he's pure magic so they're both doing well you know I think I think my 65:46 son is definitely you know he's he's done a really really good job I think 65:52 it's taken him a little longer to get there but as you said it takes years 65:56 Yeah, it can take I mean here. I am eight and a half years later. Yeah, and it took a long time to 66:03 Get it together, you know, I'm an artist. I was an interior designer 66:07 By trade so I'm an artist. I'm not a writer. So all of a sudden I'm on to write a book 66:13 Yeah, I can talk and tell a story 66:15 But to put it down on paper right a different thing. Yeah 66:19 What do you think is the biggest misconception about? 66:23 about life after loss and finding your joy again. 66:28 Like what would you say is something 66:30 that people don't get right and they should know this? 66:34 People think that you should move on or get over it. 66:41 And you don't, you, you, it's in you. 66:47 It changes, grief changes shape. 66:49 It's different at all stages of your life, 66:51 But it's always with you right and you learn how to make it flow in your life with you, right? 66:59 That's amazing 67:00 And lastly, I just want to end with what's something you want us to know 67:05 About Richard or or remember what something you remember about him that you want us to know about. I just want everyone to know 67:16 He had a very he was very very sensitive and had 67:21 Always thought he would become homeless for some reason 67:24 So, when he would make sack lunches and put them in his backpack, and he would drive around 67:33 and sit with the homeless people, and he would sit down, he wouldn't just give them a sandwich. 67:39 He would sit down and hand them a sandwich and say, how are you today? 67:43 Tell me about yourself. 67:45 Tell me about your life. 67:46 How do you become homeless? 67:47 And he would sit and listen. 67:48 And he did this for a very long time. 67:53 And he had a huge heart, a million dollar smile, 67:57 and is missed every single day. 68:02 But that memory of him and his huge heart is ingrained. 68:07 And as I said, love's unstoppable. 68:10 Yeah. 68:11 Well, thank you for letting us hear about him 68:14 and get to know him. 68:14 Thank you. 68:15 And I wish you the best of luck on your path 68:17 that you are taking now and I can't wait to read the book when it comes out. 68:21 Thank you so much for having me. 68:22 If you've enjoyed today's episode, don't let it end here. 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