Shame, Scams, and The Stories We Tell Ourselves (with Ollie Wards)

Jake sits down with Snowball creator Ollie Wards to discuss how a family mystery became an international hit. They trace Ollie's journey from the first recorded conversation with his dad - recorded under a hotel duvet - to the heart-pounding moment he found himself face-to-face with the con artist herself: Lezlie Manukian.

Along the way, they touch on the challenges of reporting on family, the psychology of scammers and their victims, and the strange kind of closure that comes when truth is messier than justice.

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