Show full transcript 0:37 they don't settle for the status quo, they shatter it. 0:41 GCU empowers 0:42 learners of every generation, offering 0:44 on-campus, online, and hybrid 0:45 learning environments. Hands-on classes 0:48 are designed to prepare you for skills 0:49 for industry, and online programs have a supportive community from all over the country. 0:54 This is Purpose Driven Education. 0:56 Take action. 0:57 Find your purpose. 0:58 Grand Canyon University. 1:00 Visit gcu.edu. 1:08 Hi everybody, I'm Josh Mancoats. 1:10 We're talking Dateline. 1:11 Today with Laine Alexander. 1:14 Hello. 1:15 Hello. 1:16 So we're here to talk about Laine's episode, The Mushroom Mystery. 1:21 Now that's a story about a woman named Katrina Fouts who plotted to poison her husband David 1:26 using poisonous mushrooms. 1:29 That for a variety of reasons did not work, so Katrina's friend Terry strangled David. 1:35 In the end, Terry confessed to killing David, and Katrina was found not guilty of murder, 1:41 but she was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder. 1:45 Now, if you haven't seen this episode, you can stream it on Peacock or watch it on your 1:50 DVR, or you can listen to it on the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here 1:55 for this discussion. 1:57 And then later, we're going to have an extra clip from Blaine's interview with the killer 2:01 Terry's ex-wife. 2:03 But first, let's talk Dateline. 2:06 Let's talk Dateline. 2:08 I was thinking about where to start, and because it's me, I'm going to start 2:12 at the more trivial. 2:13 There's an old joke that the other vegetables don't want to hang out with the mushroom and 2:20 they're excluding him. 2:21 And he goes, why? 2:22 I'm a fun guy. 2:24 Get it? 2:24 Right? 2:25 Okay. 2:27 That apparently, according to your story, according to your story, that's not my joke. 2:32 According to your story, that's not true. 2:35 It's fungi? 2:36 I mean, she's a scientist, presumably she knows. 2:39 That was one of the many things that I learned through the course of doing this story, by the way 2:43 Um, I always thought it was fun guy, but I've not dedicated years of my life to studying 2:49 Mushrooms and so yes hearing it pronounced that way. I said, you know what that's not how I've said it, but I trust you 2:54 I trust you. Yeah, I mean that wrecks that joke, but okay 2:58 Keep telling it because most people don't know 3:03 It's a crowd-pleaser. Yeah, no they they can't get enough of it this feels actually 3:08 just to delve a little deeper into this. This feels a little different from the 3:14 GIF versus GIF debate, right? Because that it feels like it's got a certain 3:19 number of people on both sides. But, you know, when the woman who studies 3:26 mushrooms for a living says fungi, then I'm inclined to stop telling that 3:31 joke. So when I first heard about this story about somebody getting poisoned 3:36 with mushrooms, my mind immediately went to that poisoning story in Australia from a couple of 3:43 years ago in which a woman fed death-cap mushrooms, actual death-cap mushrooms, to members of her 3:50 family, estranged members of her family because they were going through a divorce, 3:53 and I managed to kill several people and ended up getting locked up for it. 3:59 But I immediately thought, oh, this was inspired by that, but not true. 4:03 Your story happened before that Australia poisoning story. So maybe they got they got the idea from this 4:09 You know what it's it's possible 4:11 But one thing that we learned in the course of this is that Katrina the woman who has been convicted of this 4:16 She really enjoys true crime shows. I mean, that's something that she does she watches 4:20 We know the dateline something she watches she watches some of the others 4:23 And so who knows where ideas are birthed, but certainly she took in a lot of it 4:30 I think the other thing is that you know 4:32 what's interesting about mushroom culture or mushroom hunting culture is that if you're in 4:38 that part of Indiana, that's something that is pretty familiar to you. And so while you or I 4:43 may not think of mushrooms as a way to poison anybody, not that we're thinking of how to poison 4:46 people. But while that might not be something that's top of mind for us, it certainly makes a lot 4:52 more sense because it's part of the everyday conversation. Mushrooms are just very much 4:56 a part of the way of life there. 4:57 I guess, although, you know, if one percent of the eggs that I ate were potentially fatal, 5:06 I'd probably stop eating eggs. 5:08 At least I'd stop searching for them myself. 5:11 I would get ones that I'd trust. 5:12 I mean, like, I would not be going out mushroom hunting if I lived in Indiana or anywhere 5:17 else for exactly this reason. 5:19 I mean, they were looking for a fatal mushroom. 5:22 They didn't find one, but they found one that is that that- 5:25 Did some significant damage. 5:28 Yeah, so do you want to know something strange? 5:30 I actually am not a mushroom eater myself. 5:33 And I think that it's because years ago, 5:36 at some point in my very, very young developmental life, 5:39 I learned that mushrooms could be poisonous. 5:42 And for whatever reason, 5:43 I then decided that I didn't like mushrooms. 5:45 And then I got older, it became a texture thing, 5:47 and I just don't necessarily eat them. 5:49 I picked them off of pizzas if I have them. 5:51 Not because I think I'm going to get poisoned at this point, 5:54 But I just I'm not a mushroom girl and I think that it started, you know in my mind from there 5:59 But but to your point. Yes. I mean, you know as we were interviewing Dr. Aime 6:04 I mean, I just asked about 6:05 When you think about the fact that somebody goes out and is looking for a specific type of mushroom 6:09 They happen upon another less dangerous, but still dangerous mushroom that looks remarkably similar to that one. Yeah, and very similar 6:20 That's not an uncommon mistake if you're out there 6:23 even if you're, you know, well-versed on mushrooms, if you're an amateur mushroom hunter, 6:27 that's something that could happen. So mistakes like that can happen is the point. 6:31 Yeah, this is, I just would never, I would never do that. 6:36 You know, what's interesting is that I had never heard of mushroom hunting in my life. 6:42 Until I shot this story and another story, and within the course of about a month, 6:47 I believe it or not had two stories that included mushroom hunting 6:51 back to back in Kentucky and Indiana never heard of it before this is this 6:56 story and then my previous story the bluegrass murder the bluegrass mystery 7:00 where it was a group of mushroom hunters that happened upon Ella Jackson's body 7:05 right and so never had I heard of it before and then suddenly back to back 7:09 stories they play big roles very interesting okay so so investigators 7:16 believe that Katrina maybe put it on some pizza but not a pizza she may 7:21 like some frozen pizza or something that she's like take out or something like that yeah 7:25 just kind of put it on there but obviously enough for him to eat it and whatever Dave's feelings were 7:31 about her it doesn't seem that he was afraid of her enough to worry about anything he might have eaten 7:38 well you know what's really in speaking with Dave's friends about this they really gave 7:44 a lot of insight into how he was feeling because they talked about a man who was just absolutely 7:50 taken by Katrina. I mean just really head over heels in love, smitten with this 7:55 woman, crying at the possibility or the thought of losing her. Even after, as we 7:59 talked about in the story, she'd done some pretty kind of awful things to him. 8:03 And yet he still was thinking, gosh, I cannot lose this woman. I love this woman. 8:07 I'm really, you know, wanting to be with her. He couldn't give her up. And you 8:12 know what's interesting is that people don't want to see whether they're 8:16 men or women, they don't want to recognize the things that they clearly do see with their 8:22 own two eyes. 8:23 Like this person is dangerous. 8:25 This person treats me badly, doesn't respect me, lies to me, has done secret things that 8:31 hurt me and they, for whatever reason, can't stop. 8:35 I think that it speaks to two things. 8:37 I think it speaks to one, the blinding nature of love or the illusion of love, 8:42 right? 8:42 like how you think that you are so with someone that you're willing to look past all sorts of things. 8:48 But I also think that it speaks to the fear that so many people have of being alone and of being 8:54 lonely. And you know we've done stories you've done plenty I certainly have where people do not 8:59 want to be by themselves where they would get into a terrible situation where even if it's 9:04 like their friends their families and gosh this seems like a really bad match but they 9:08 really really want to be not by themselves and I want to point out one 9:13 thing too I mean in this situation David he had the money he had the job he had 9:17 the you know the he could have easily walked away and not been any worse for 9:22 the wear financially or in terms of home or things like that so it really was 9:27 this this kind of like magnetic like draw that she had on him when we 9:32 get back we have an extra clip from Blaine's interview with the 9:36 the accomplices, ex-wife, Deb. 9:43 Hey, listeners, I'm Ash. 9:44 And I'm Alina. 9:45 And we are so excited to have joined the Serious XM family. 9:52 And you know what? 9:53 If you want to keep hearing new episodes of Morbid ad free, 9:56 subscribe to Serious XM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts 10:00 or visit seriousxm.com slash podcast plus 10:05 to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. 10:09 Let's go! 10:11 Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? 10:17 Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. 10:20 You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Docs, Sheets, 10:25 and more. 10:26 No new tools, no extra logins. 10:28 Just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. 10:33 Make work less work. 10:35 Try Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. 10:40 Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. 10:42 I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. 10:49 It's not just for celebrities. 10:50 So do like I did and have one of your assistance assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. 10:55 I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. 10:59 up front payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month 11:04 required intro rate first three months only then full-price plan options 11:07 available taxes and fees extra default terms at mintmobile.com 11:14 let's just talk a little bit about the nuts and bolts of the 11:16 investigation so you know you know the bodies found just lying on the side 11:23 of the road it almost feels as if there was no attempt to conceal the 11:29 body. I mean, if you move the body another 10 yards sort of farther off the shoulder 11:36 and into that ditch, uh, who knows how long it would have been before, uh, uh, before 11:42 anybody found it. I mean, it does kind of feel like the body was found within the 11:45 first 24 hours largely because there wasn't much of an attempt to hide that. 11:51 I think you're absolutely right. And I have to say that actually walking that 11:54 route with Jenny, who we met at the very beginning, I mean, that was our 11:56 normal walking route and so being able to be with her and having her point and 12:00 say no no no it was right here because as you know how it is when we're 12:04 preparing for these stories we're reading all this information we kind of 12:06 look at pictures and things but you don't really get an accurate picture or 12:10 understanding of kind of where things are situated until you get a chance to 12:14 go to the scene and so as I was reading and everything I didn't realize 12:18 just how close it was to the road until I got out there with Jenny and 12:21 she said no no it was actually right there like I mean it was it was not 12:24 Not too far off the road at all. 12:26 You know, in talking with the investigators, it seemed like they got the sense that it 12:31 was difficult to move David Fouts's body. 12:35 Like this is somebody who was a very athletic man. 12:38 He was in great shape. 12:39 I mean, he was a muscular dude. 12:40 He rode bicycles all the time. 12:42 Right? 12:42 This is a very physically fit man. 12:44 This is where the phrase dead weight comes from. 12:47 Like moving a lifeless body is much harder than people think it's going to be. 12:52 Yes, exactly. 12:53 Let's talk about Katrina and the investigators because that little dance is something that 12:59 you and I have both seen before in stories in which the person who was under suspicion 13:04 sort of engages with the investigators to one, seem cooperative and two, kind of figure 13:12 out how much suspicion they're under and three, sort of what they have and where the 13:16 investigation is going and four, point some fingers at other people. 13:21 And it does not appear, in this instance, 13:25 that those two guys were in any way fooled by any of that. 13:30 I mean, I think that they saw through Katrina 13:32 from the very beginning. 13:33 I think that when you look at those interviews down 13:35 at the station where she's talking about Fashion Week 13:37 and the Kardashians or her clients and all of these things, 13:40 I mean, from the very beginning, they said, 13:43 gosh, there's something going on with this lady. 13:44 She likes to talk a lot. 13:45 And what she's saying is not truthful. 13:47 And then, yes, after a while, once she started calling, 13:49 calling the investigator repeatedly. And I mean, I asked him, I said, what was she talking 13:54 about? What were you talking about? He said anything, literally, life, liberty and pursuit 13:58 of happiness, whatever it was. He knew that that was a way to just kind of keep her there, 14:03 keep her on the hook while they got enough to basically be able to make an arrest. 14:08 The hardest thing for investigators sometimes is a person of interest or suspect who immediately 14:18 says, you know, I'm invoking my right to counsel and if you want to talk to me 14:22 anymore, you know, you can call my attorney and then they just don't talk and 14:29 then they never talk and then they don't testify and so you don't really have 14:33 either at the investigative level or the prosecutorial level an opportunity 14:37 to challenge them, which is actually one reason why when those people sit 14:41 down with you or me or Andrea or Keith or Lester or Dennis, like 14:45 frequently like this is the only time they're getting crossed, right? Because 14:50 the police didn't have a chance to do it and prosecutors didn't have a chance to 14:53 do it. But the thing that they love is somebody like Katrina who won't shut up. 15:00 I mean not only is she saying a bunch of things that are provably not true, but 15:04 she's telling them to look every single place except right at her. 15:10 Yes. I mean, you've heard the you've heard the expression before when I was a young reporter, 15:17 one of the older folks in our newsroom. You're still a young reporter. 15:22 When I was a young in the game reporter, I'm 40 now, by the way, Josh, I've crossed the 15:27 threshold, okay? That's where we're, we're, I don't know what, I'm not middle-aged, 15:31 I'm not claiming that, but I'm not young anymore. That sounded ferociously young to me, yeah. 15:36 When I was a very young in the game and young by age reporter one of my mentors his name was 15:43 Hampton Pearson and he told me that one day I was doing a lot of live shots and he said just 15:48 be careful that you don't get out too far in front of your skis right like even if you have time to 15:52 fill even if you you know need to say something because of this amount of time they've slotted 15:57 you in the rundown just make sure that you're within the bounds of what you have confirmed 16:01 in what you know. And I think that in thinking about Katrina, she was doing a lot of talking 16:07 without any sort of guardrails. And so yes, there were lies coming out, but certainly investigators 16:12 would look at that and say, there's going to be something that comes out that could be useful 16:16 to us in building a case. Okay. So this is an opportunity because this is talking dayline. 16:22 For me to talk about when I was a young reporter, which was when TV was still powered by 16:27 steam or we would shovel the coal into the back of the set. 16:31 But this was 1980 and I was a reporter for Channel 7 in Washington D.C. 16:42 And then I was going to do a live shot for the 11 o'clock news. 16:44 But I have my own notebook, add the spiral up top one, which is actually important 16:49 to the story. 16:49 So, so let's do this like this. 16:52 So I wrote down here, I wrote down the thing I was going to say first, right? 16:57 my open and I get through that but I'm not good at that right this is my first 17:02 ever live show I could feel my heart like doing this right and then but now I'm 17:07 realized I'm more than halfway through because my story runs I can hear it in my 17:11 ear the my story is running on the air and so I flipped to the end I'd written 17:17 the open on one page and then I'd written the close on the next page but 17:21 But I didn't look down because I thought I knew that, right? 17:27 I thought I felt kind of loose now, like I was on top of the world. 17:31 And I turned two pages instead of just one, right? 17:38 And when I looked down right when I went back on, I had turned to the list of things 17:46 that I was buying my mom for Christmas. 17:49 And so instead of the pithy thing that I had written for the end of my story, it said omelette 18:01 pan. 18:02 And I thought, well, that's not right. 18:05 And then I started like looking for it, but I started going the wrong way, right? 18:10 And what felt like about 45 minutes past, right? 18:14 and I think the anchor, the anchor said, Josh, like, like, yeah. 18:20 Well, this is live on TV, by the way. 18:22 All live on television. 18:23 Oh, there you go. 18:23 And by the way, I would point out, this was when there was no internet, basically no cable, 18:30 no streaming, like there were a lot of people watching, like a third of the televisions 18:36 in Washington, D.C. were watching me. 18:38 This would be probably hundreds of thousands of people saw this, but the good news, 18:42 There's no YouTube then either, so there is no record of this anywhere. 18:46 No record of this. 18:46 And so I finally sort of like figured out what my tag was, and then I said it. 18:52 I'm glad that you didn't start reading Omelette Pans, like, you know, gift cards on it. 18:58 So good. 18:59 I'm Ron Burgundy. 19:00 You didn't do that. 19:02 No, no, I did not do that. 19:04 So let's go back over for a minute. 19:07 The story of this is sort of Katrina's like like weird relationship with Terry and then also the one she sort of 19:16 Cultivated with the cops Katrina was a mighty interesting woman. There were obviously many layers and many lives to Katrina and 19:23 You got that in the conversations that she had with the investigator 19:28 You got that in the recorded interviews that she had with the detectives that first night 19:33 that also you got that in the fact that a relationship between Katrina and Terry even existed, right? 19:39 And this is something that I asked Terry's ex-wife Deb, 19:43 did she think that something like this, that a murder of David Fouts would have happened, had it not been for 19:48 Katrina and Terry joining forces? Like Terry was the perfect person essentially to 19:54 be the kind of wing guy for this type of crime. Had they not found each other, would this have happened? 20:00 And you don't know, but there was certainly something in her that recognized, okay, this 20:04 is the type of person that I can get to go along with this. 20:08 One of the things that really kind of fascinated me was the story of how Terry changed after 20:15 his stroke. 20:16 The story told in that great interview you did with his ex. 20:22 I mean, obviously, I have seen people change their personalities because of medical situations 20:30 because they've been ill and their health is compromised in some way. But good guy to furious, 20:41 angry, lawless and then murderer, that's something I haven't seen. 20:45 I can't say enough about Deb and her sitting down with us because it's clear that she is 20:51 still very much in pain over everything that happened between the medical condition that 20:59 befell her husband, the divorce, the fact that he cheated on her, the fact that he just 21:03 changed into this person, watching this person that she had loved for decades suddenly become 21:07 somebody else. 21:08 I can't imagine what that is like. 21:10 And then to come to find out that this man is then involved in a murder, I can't even 21:15 imagine kind of how she grapples with all that in her mind. 21:17 The other thing though that she did say toward the end of our interview is that 21:21 she also wanted to speak about Terry because she didn't want his entire life to be 21:27 He reduced to that portion of it. 21:30 She wanted to talk about the person that he was before him. 21:32 She wanted to talk about his goodness before the medical condition and everything else befell 21:38 him. 21:38 Today on Talking Dateline, we have an extra clip of that interview that you did with 21:43 Deb that did not air on the TV broadcast. 21:46 So let's listen to that now. 21:48 It's your conversation with her about Terry's diagnosis and sort of how that 21:53 changed everything. 21:54 And I asked the doctor. I said, what can we do about this? He said nothing. He said the 22:02 word nothing. He said, there's nothing you can do. There's no surgery. There's no therapy. 22:07 There's no medicine. I said, what should I expect? More aggression. 22:14 More aggression. And here you are sitting next to your husband, your life partner. 22:19 You've been together for decades. 22:21 Right. 22:22 I can't imagine how it's terrifying. 22:26 It's absolutely terrifying because there was anything like his diabetes or his heart or 22:32 because he did have heart problems. 22:35 There was always something I could do to help. 22:38 I couldn't do a thing. 22:40 You know, at first I, you know, I was a little angry with God saying, why are you punishing 22:44 me like this? 22:45 I've been a good wife. 22:46 He's been a good husband. 22:48 Why? 22:49 What did I do? Why are you punishing me? Then the divorce happened and four 22:56 months later the murder happened that quickly that quickly and then I realized 23:01 no God wasn't punishing me he was protecting me. Okay so this is what you 23:09 know we talk about sometimes which is the the ripple effect of murder you 23:15 You know, I mean, you know, she was not a member of Dave's family, right? 23:21 But like her life is inexorably, irretrievably changed because of this. 23:28 Absolutely. 23:28 You know, I mean, I think a couple of things there. 23:30 One, she talks about the fact that it was devastating to her for all of the people 23:34 who were in their lives to find out about Terry's arrest and everything that had 23:39 happened, right? 23:40 Because, again, he'd been known as kind of this pillar of the community, this 23:44 officer who was really, I mean, dedicated his life to law enforcement and then suddenly 23:48 his mug shot is flashed all over the news or in the newspaper. 23:51 So that was just personally devastating for her and for the love that she still had for 23:55 her ex-husband, despite the ways that he had changed and the ways that he had hurt her. 23:59 And then the other part of it is, yes, she feels, I don't know if guilty is the word, 24:03 because obviously she didn't play any role in David Faust's death, but she feels 24:08 so terribly for his family and for the people who loved him because of the role that 24:13 Terry played in what happened to him. 24:16 And so there are a lot of emotions in her that she, you know, will have to work very 24:21 hard to reconcile. 24:23 Yeah. 24:24 And she didn't do anything wrong, but it's, it's, it's a huge thing to get over. 24:28 She doesn't know Dave's family, right? 24:30 Correct. 24:30 She doesn't, she doesn't. 24:32 And at one point she spoke, I mean, you know, I asked, is there anything that 24:35 you want to say to them that you would like to say to them? 24:37 And she just really spoke about how terribly she feels, um, for everything 24:41 that, that happened to him. 24:43 Okay, all right. When we come back, we're going to take your questions from social media. 25:15 affiliates, and other insurers, not available in all states. 25:19 Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. 25:21 That's why Pandora makes it easy to explore all your favorites and discover new artists 25:25 and genres you'll love. 25:27 Enjoy a personalized listening experience simply by selecting any song or album and 25:31 will make a station crafted just for you. 25:33 Best of all, you can listen for free. 25:36 Download Pandora on the Apple App Store or Google Play and start hearing the soundtrack 25:40 to your life. 25:40 Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? 25:46 Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. 25:49 You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Docs, Sheets, and more. 25:55 No new tools, no extra logins. 25:57 Just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. 26:03 Make work less work. 26:04 Try Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini 26:12 Time for some social media questions. Donna McNair on Facebook asks us 26:18 Did they ever explain the dog collar around his neck, which is a very good question 26:24 I mean, what is that? Is that part of? 26:26 strangling him or an attempt to throw off investigators by suggesting some kind of S&M angle 26:32 So, Donna, that was a fantastic question and the answer is it was not, in fact, a dog collar. 26:39 It was a rifle sling and so it was what looked like a dog collar. 26:42 That's what the 911 collar said at first, but it was actually the rifle sling that 26:47 they had put around his body to kind of try and use to get him into the ditch. 26:52 But once it got all, you know, twisted around and everything, it looked like a dog 26:56 collar to the 911, the person who called 911. 26:59 one. Barbara Weaver on Facebook asks if they're saying he was asphyxiated by Terry, why didn't 27:05 the autopsy reveal that? Barbara, that's a very good question. At the end of the day, 27:11 they were never actually able to definitively determine the cause of death. That the notion 27:17 of asphyxiation was part of the theory, basically saying that he was so weakened 27:22 that they were able to strangle him and ultimately kill him. But it didn't have, 27:26 I mean, none of the telltale signs were there. And that kind of is what points to the difficulty 27:32 that prosecutors had because they were never able to, you know, get the conclusive cause of death. 27:37 Yeah, which makes their job a little tougher. 27:41 Charlene Kennedy-Richard on Facebook asks,
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