In this episode, Patrick McKenzie (@patio11) is joined by Mikey Dickerson to discuss the complex realities behind government software projects. Mikey shares insights from leading the healthcare.gov rescue effort and founding the United States Digital Service, explaining how procurement processes create requirements through committee decision-making without market-based feedback loops. They explore how government systems handle software development differently than industry, with Mikey noting that the issues are less about individual competence and more about systemic incentives that reward risk aversion. The conversation covers the challenges of "modernization" efforts, the loss of organizational management knowledge over decades, and reflection on when and how technologists might effectively contribute to public service. – Full transcript available here: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/fixing-government-technology-with-mikey-dickerson/ – Sponsor: Mercury This episode is brought to you by Mercury , the fintech trusted by 200K+ companies — from first milestones to running complex systems. Mercury offers banking that truly understands startups and scales with them. Start today at Mercury.com Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column N.A., and Evolve Bank & Trust; Members FDIC. – Recommended in this episode: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/fixing-government-technology-with-mikey-dickerson/ Bureaucracy by James Q. Wilson: https://www.amazon.com/Bureaucracy-Government-Agencies-Basic-Classics/dp/0465007856 Movie: The Pentagon Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars Mikey Dickerson's company Layer Aleph: https://layeraleph.com/ Complex Systems with Dan Davies https://open.spotify.com/episode/5QKxzgumJXSQuaWCmYAoM9?si=uQWgAx1iSzGm5iCUBWei8A Complex Systems with Dave Guarino https://open.spotify.com/episode/0UlTIRosmjtvpcdHQ7t2tK?si=MlUqO3uWRie1E_GRQ5D7jg – Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (00:24) Government software procurement (06:02) Fighter planes and requirements (08:37) Software development cycles (11:37) Deadline challenges (12:18) California vaccine scheduling (16:15) Pandemic priorities (17:27) Sponsor: Mercury (18:40) Government employee competence (22:30) Government pay scales (25:56) IRS modernization reports (27:48) System modernization plans (34:33) Healthcare.gov lessons (36:59) Government software capability (40:29) Feedback loops in civil service (44:09) Legislative expertise (46:49) Applied mathematics (47:57) Loss of knowledge (49:28) Tour of duty recommendation (53:06) Wrap
