Should We Slut Shame?

In this thought-provoking discussion, we analyze the historical roots and social purpose behind the practice of "slut shaming." We explain how in monogamous societies, sexual promiscuity by some women lowers the value proposition for more chaste women. This creates motivations to apply social costs to casual sex.

We argue slut shaming emerges as a way to enforce cultural norms around sexuality and relationships without needing formal legal coercion. Shaming works best inside a cultural in-group. Attempting to shame outsiders often backfires by making your own group seem regressive.

We also discuss whether slut shaming still "makes sense" today, as cultural norms have shifted. Ultimately we contend it remains relevant for traditionalists seeking partners with low "body counts." Signaling those values clearly is worthwhile, though trying to broadly change mainstream behavior is pointless.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] You know, infrared systems.

Simone Collins: But what are you hunting for humans? No,

Malcolm Collins: you don't hunt for humans not smoke. We don't talk about that Yes, this is recording now. You can't talk about that Thing for our friends This is a joke, obviously we don't hunt humans recreationally at night we don't engage in

Simone Collins: the ultimate sport

Malcolm Collins: You don't call it the ultimate sport.

It is a sport. I'd hardly say it's the best sport. It's anything mediocre because we don't like it.

Simone Collins: Isn't the ultimate sport winning hearts? Right.

Malcolm Collins: Yes! That's the ultimate sport, Throne. Mm hmm, yeah, that's the ultimate sport. I really admire you. Okay, so this episode is a good one, I hope, I hope. What we're going to talk about is slut shaming.

We're going to talk about why [00:01:00] People may slut shame. Like why historically this train came about because like people don't just hurt other people for no reason, right? Like if they're shaming you, if they're doing something, there's a reason for that. Either it's an immediate self interested reason or it's because cultural groups that engaged in this practice outcompeted cultural groups that didn't engage in this practice.

In the case of slut shaming, it's a bit of both. And then we're going to evaluate. In a modern context, does slut shaming still make sense? With this question being asked in two categories. Does slut shaming make sense if you slut shame people of other cultural groups? Like, does that have utility? And does slut shaming make sense within a cultural group?

Does it make sense to slut shame members of your own cultural group? So first, Simone, do you want to go over what slut shaming is for people who may not know?

Simone Collins: Ah, yes. Slut shaming involves both male and female public [00:02:00] criticism, often to other people, though often to the subject themselves of someone's sexual promiscuity.

So I think a lot of people define a slut as someone who actually like sleeps around a lot. bUt slut shaming in its traditional context could involve literally just shaming a young woman for losing her virginity early. And just then call her a slut because she like literally had sex with her boyfriend at age 16 or something.

And it is It is an interesting innovation. It's been around for a long time. Well,

Malcolm Collins: hold on. I'd expand it further there. Another area where I often see slut shaming, and I think this is, you know, when I remember in high school

Simone Collins: Oh, just for dress, right? Just looking

Malcolm Collins: sexually provocative? No, I get it.

It's just dress or action. You know, when I didn't like a woman I remember in groups, they call them the sluts, you know, and I think even just generally like not necessarily, they had done something that showed improprietary, impropriety, improper, it was improper. Yeah, it was just seen as a negative general thing to say about somebody.

[00:03:00] And so it was frequently used to describe a people who you didn't like, but of course, Isn't

Simone Collins: so like people would often refer to guys that they were making fun of as gay. Or some variation of that. And then they would refer to women that they didn't approve of as sluts, regardless of any sexual signaling whatsoever.

Malcolm Collins: This is our generation, by the way, we're not talking, I don't think this is true as much anymore, especially. It is

Simone Collins: interesting to just like. Use it as an approximation. I guess it's kind of like culling someone mentally disabled in some way, like choose

Malcolm Collins: whatever word of the time. I think because they were trying to elevate the, the worst things that they could think of each gender succumbing to from the, the, the cultural perspective of the time, normative behavior, women, it was sexual impropriety.

It was men. And it's, it's very interesting. Yeah. Well, no, I won't even say sexual deviance. When people in my generation, so I grew up in, in Texas, you know, and a long time ago. I'm 36 now. You're very old. I'm very old. Prodigiously ancient. [00:04:00] So yeah, so when they would use the word gay derogatorily of other young men or, or things, they'd be like, oh, that's so gay.

They didn't mean, even at the time I thought it was off. Like I didn't. Really do it myself, which you know, thank god. There's no hidden recording of me ever being, no, because I, I, I was really involved with the gay community even like, like early on, but anyway, so, they didn't mean it in a way where they were saying that these individuals were interested in same sex relationships.

That would not be seen as like the highest negative to being this derogatory gay. It was meant to mean that men were not living up to masculine ideals.

Simone Collins: It, that's funny because I feel like honestly the most masculine high testosterone subgroup of men is

Malcolm Collins: gay men. Well, yeah, and that's what I mean.

And I think that that's why there was this, uh, disconnect for a long time where, where a lot of people when they would use this word in a derogatory context, they didn't think of themselves as hurting the gay community [00:05:00] because they did not mean it of the vast majority of the gay community.

Simone Collins: Right. They weren't actually referring to.

I guess if anything it's a derogatory word just because it refers to Well in their mind from condoned societal norms per their perception. Yeah Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: the negative effects it had were they're all the same, you know But i'm just pointing out that this is this is what we meant. So that's really interesting there.

And I and I I wonder if we lost away Sorry, just just a total tangent from the slut shaming thing Did we lose a way to insult men for not being masculine because we tied the core way that we would do that insult to the term gay, which had a separate meaning. Well, I think now that's why

Simone Collins: what we've discovered, I think we've realized that subtly, subconsciously as a population, and that's why we use the word cuck more recently.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, wow. Yes. Yeah. Actually, yeah, we use pussy for a [00:06:00] bit, which didn't really catch on as much. And then cuck, that is so perfect, and it's also a perfect thing. When people of my generation said something was gay, or they said somebody was gay, that was much closer to them in today's language, calling that thing cucked, or calling that i