Reproductive Futures for the Men's Rights Movement

Sandman, a leading figure in the MGTOW community, joins Simone and Malcolm to discuss high-tech reproductive strategies. They explore surrogacy, genetic selection, artificial wombs, sexbots, and more ways men can have children without partners. Other topics include all-male vs all-female societies, economics, and virtual intimacy technologies.

Sandman: [00:00:00] a lot of guys are also looking for, they want loverbots or sexbots because they're trying to, you're trying to compartmentalize every aspect of what you would get from a woman and take technology and replace everything. And this is something that a lot of women that I've spoken to, they get really oppity because it's, it makes, it creates obsolescence, right?

Sandman: Why would they choose a real life woman versus using the technology.

Simone: Yeah. And I, I do, I thought that's one of my favorite arguments that I see like within MGTOW, just Hey, listen, when you look at.

Simone: The difference between a suboptimal relationship with a spouse where you're paying a lot extra for everything versus like getting everything piecemeal. It really is crazy that people would choose to have a suboptimal relationship with a spouse to do all this.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm: hello. It is so wonderful to be here with you today, Simone. We have a wonderful guest today. So actually [00:01:00] before he reached out to us, he was on an email list for us to reach out to, because we were interested in reaching out to the people in the MGTOW community. And I was like, okay, so who are the top MGTOW people these days?

Malcolm: And I looked and the first name was Sandman. who they called the Mount Rushmore of the MGTOW community. And so I was like, wow, he's already, that's amazing. IDs travel in similar circles. So for people who aren't familiar with the MGTOW community this stands for Men Going Their Own Way which is a cultural response to the raw deal.

Malcolm: Many men feel they're getting a society today and you can correct me if I said anything wrong there, but what is our topic today, Simone?

Simone: We are going to talk about something way beyond the basics of MGTOW, which is reproductive strategy, because just because you may be opting out of like traditional relationships with women doesn't mean that you don't want to have.

Simone: Kids, so it doesn't

Malcolm: mean that you don't want your cultural group to survive into the future.

Simone: Exactly. So what do, how can we use technology and different [00:02:00] strategies?

Malcolm: How can we make MGTOW an intergenerationally durable cultural group? Okay. So

Sandman: The first thing when I started my channel back in end of 2013, the first thing that came to mind was I don't want to get married, but I still want to have children. So how am I going to pull this off? And the first thing I looked at was gestational surrogacy. And you can go and buy eggs for five, 6, 000 on the open market.

Sandman: And then you can go and pay for a surrogate in another country and then you can reproduce and you can have all the children you want. And so when I put that video out, I got a good response, but a lot of women were very upset because they said you're depriving the children of a mother. They said, you're, yes, this is the argument that was being thrown around.

Sandman: It's not fair for you to deprive. The child, and I'm thinking to myself, but what about all the single mothers out there that are depriving their children of fathers?

Malcolm: Just to add to this, because the audience might not be familiar with this statistic, is that there's been a lot of studies on this, and while coming from a [00:03:00] single mother household has a lot of negative implications on children.

Malcolm: Long term single father households actually don't have that many negative implications. Sick birth of mothers. There's alternative reasons why this might be the case. It might be that they typically because courts so disproportionately favor women, divorce courts do, that really the only time that when people get a divorce or In the relationship for some sort of bad reason, the kids are going to the mother.

Malcolm: But if one of the parents dies, then it's going to the father. That could be what's causing this in the data. But it is just a true thing in most of the data that being a single father has much better implications than being a single mother. Continue.

Sandman: So about five or ten different guys over the years have contacted me and they've told me that they've tried gestational surrogacy either in Ukraine.

Sandman: Or in Africa or in Mexico when I first saw what was going on, I thought, okay, I'm going to do India because India seemed to be the most cost effective at the time you could get for 12, 000. Roughly. You could basically have a child. Yeah. You're looking at the cost is very low. [00:04:00] It's not just that it's also to do with genetic selection.

Sandman: I know you guys are very involved in genetic selection, when you go through. You can pick through all the different surrogates. So if you're a five foot five short man lit you're not going to get many women to date you and have reproduced reproduction with you. So what you want to do is you want to go and find someone that's, five foot, nine, five foot, 10, six feet tall.

Sandman: Blonde hair. Sorry. Yeah. Blonde hair blue eyes. And then you can basically up your value, up the value of your children and get them higher in the sexual marketplace that way.

Simone: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But you could

Malcolm: really spam that using, college and our score

Simone: selection. Yeah,

Malcolm: so you want to talk about the cost of that, Simone, just so yeah,

Simone: First, if we're talking about the cost of surrogacy it's typically well over a hundred thousand dollars in the United States.

Malcolm: I'm asking is what would be the marginal cost if he was able to do this in India to do the polygenic risk score selection?

Simone: It's non trivial now, and hopefully it will be a lot less expensive in the future. So right [00:05:00] now, I think genomic prediction, which is the gold standard of like your typical getting it started, polygenic risk score selection, I think is around like 400 per embryo with a sort of minimum

Malcolm: fee.

Malcolm: But that would allow you to look at things like height for every one of those embryos? No.

Simone: Not exactly. They don't tell you that? They don't tell you height. Genomic prediction only tells you a series of politically correct health

Malcolm: scores. So you need to export the data and send it to other people? Yeah,

Simone: so you need to export it and then upload it to other platforms.

Simone: Self decode being one that's more affordable and also like publicly open about yes, we'll accept genomic prediction exports. Yes, we have a variety of scores. I don't know if currently they have one for height though. So there are other groups

Malcolm: that do. Yeah,

Simone: It's just, it is not cheap.

Sandman: Okay India banned banned everything about, I think it was about 10 or 11 years ago. So just as I