Do We Have a Real Relationship?

Malcolm and Simone have an insightful debate about why some celebrities seem to genuinely enjoy interacting with fans, while others recoil. Malcolm argues niche internet stars are more likely to be themselves publicly, feeling kinship with fans who understand their odd ideas. But Simone counters that reaching mainstream fame requires compromising your true self. They discuss how public personalities reacting negatively to fans likely feel cognitive dissonance about the persona being liked. They theorize on specific celebrities, concluding Bill Murray, Donald Trump and Andrew Tate are fully themselves, while progressive influencers often put on a facade. The lesson - pay attention to how famouses engage with fans for clues to their authenticity.

Malcolm: [00:00:00] he was like, Oh, I have a parasocial relationship with you guys. You've never met me, but I watch all your episodes and I feel like. I sort of know you through that. And it was very interesting the way I felt about that in the moment because I was like, yeah, well, I mean, you're our friend, right?

Like, I immediately felt like it was much more of a two way relationship than historically I have seen. People talk about parasocial. Well,

Simone: more than you would expect. Right?

Malcolm: And so then I begin to reflect on the people I know when they talk about their fans, do they have. A relationship where, , they genuinely feel an emotional connection to them, even when they haven't personally talked to somebody, they just meet someone, and this one's like, oh, I'm a big fan of your work, and they're immediately like, oh, yeah, we're going to get along, or do they sort of recoil at that? So then what is your thesis on what was causing this divide?

Would you like to know more?

Simone: So Malcolm, I am so afraid right now. For what reason? The, [00:01:00] imagine there's like a monster or like a murderer outside, outside your room, just outside and that feeling, that feeling, or like, like your worst enemy or like your boss or something is like right outside your, your door just waiting for you.

Malcolm: So this is because there is a mess outside her door.

Simone: There's a mess. I can, I can

Malcolm: hear it. We got all of this stuff from my mom after she died and we've been putting it away. And Simone just always reacts this way to messes. Where is this existential sort of constant hatred and dread? By the way, Simone, speaking of messes and I get added the longer we're in a relationship, I get new little tasks I have to do.

So I took a shower before this podcast and now I have to squeegee the walls of the shower after I do it. Oh, heart stains don't. I don't know if this is a task that anyone else has to do for their wife. I have not heard [00:02:00] of this as a part of regular life maintenance.

Simone: If you have hard water, it is hard water.

Malcolm: We have a whole system to help with the hard

Simone: water and it's not enough. It's not enough. It gets the glass all smudgy and gross and cloudy. And I don't want that. But yeah, anyway, we're not going to

Malcolm: talk about shower count. What, what, what inspired this podcast with a particular. So we're going to be at this Natalist conference.

We're, we're not the ones running it. A lot of people think we're, we're the ones running it. No, another group is running it. Actually they've got some, some canceled people among them. So it will be spicier, I think, than a lot of things that we might put together ourselves. And we were talking as one of the people who was running it, but who we hadn't met yet.

And he was like, Oh, I feel like, I already know, like, like I have a parasocial relationship with you guys. You've never met me, but I watch all your episodes and I feel like. I sort of know you through that. And it was very interesting the way I felt about that in the moment because I was like, yeah, well, I mean, you're our friend, right?

Like, I [00:03:00] immediately felt like it was much more of a two way relationship than historically I have seen. People talk about parasocial. Well,

Simone: more than you would expect. Right? Like when, yeah, when someone says, like, we feel like we have a parasocial relationship with you, we're like, oh, so, like, 1, you don't hate us for our views to, like, we're on the same page with some weird ideas.

Like, we've, we've, yeah,

Malcolm: but I want to get into here. Simone. Why? Because then I started thinking about, you know, Simone and I, I guess with guests we've had on and stuff like that, people can tell that we hang out at circles with lots of really high profile online celebrities in, and also IRL celebrities.

And so then I begin to reflect on the people I know when they talk about their fans, do they have. A relationship where, like, they really like the relationship they have with their, their, their fans, like, they, they genuinely feel an emotional connection to them, even when they haven't personally talked to somebody, they just [00:04:00] meet someone, and this one's like, oh, I'm a big fan of your work, and they're immediately like, oh, yeah, we're going to get along, or do they sort of recoil at that?

And when we started doing this, Simone you came up with, like, a really good heuristic for the group that would be like Yes, I get along really well. So, so we can, we can begin to lay this out. So I think people who get along, like who had seemed to think very fondly of their fans are people like Razeeb Khan.

And then when we think about our friends who are celebrities who have the most antagonism to our fans, their fans, who would like, obviously we couldn't say names because of that, but they're generally like pop celebrities, I guess I'd say like people who are really famous, but was a really, really wide

Simone: audience.

A wider, more mainstream audience, I would say. Yeah. So the people we know who are niche celebrities tend to be much more in sync with their fans. And if someone doesn't, if they've never spoken with someone, but someone knows their work and really gets it, like they typically get on pretty

Malcolm: well. Yeah. So then [00:05:00] what is it that you, your, your thesis on what was causing this divide?

Simone: Yeah. I think that, that niche celebrities are much more likely to be genuinely themselves. And that's why one there's, there it's still niche. Like, I think that when you get to a certain level of mainstream appeal you, you aren't exactly allowed to be yourself anymore. Like you have to. I'm going to push back on that, but let me, you know, make my point is, is that you're not allowed, you basically have to like, appeal to more mainstream tastes and views.

Kind of like politicians being forced to go toward the center to get more electorate when they're running for office. And so by doing that, you basically stop becoming yourself. And so when someone has a parasocial relationship with you in, in a more mainstream context. It isn't actually you, because you've had to compromise who you actually are to appeal to more people.

Now tell me why you don't think that's fair. No, I

Malcolm: think you're totally wrong about that. So I think your first point was correct. I think your second point was just so y nonsense.

So, and unfortunately I have to talk [00:06:00] around this for our audience, because Simone always gets mad if I, like, Like, Razib, I know he wouldn't care, like, we've done, he's posted pictures with us and stuff in the past, I know he wouldn't care but like, other people