Are We Monogamous?

In this candid discussion, we explore the nuances around polyamory and open relationships. We look at how polygyny historically existed among elites, the market forces leading more high-value men to pursue open relationships today, and the differences between cheating vs consensual non-monogamy. We share our own open relationship dynamics and how radical honesty helps us maintain a strong marriage.

Simone: [00:00:00] Hello, Malcolm.

Malcolm: Hello, Simone. Today, we are going to discuss an interesting topic, which is polyamory. We have discussed it in the past. But we didn't really go too deep on the topic. Yeah. And I think it deserves a deeper dive. One, because it's becoming increasingly common. Within especially the urban monoculture, like the, the, the urban populations and the progressive movement.

Malcolm: But I've also seen it among many of our more successful conservative friends for a different reason. And we can get into why we're seeing it in those circles as well. Hmm.

Simone: That sounds good to me,

Would you like to know more?​

Malcolm: but first we should do a little history lesson because I think that there's this perception.

Malcolm: That we, you know, if you're talking about the Western tradition more broadly has been historically a [00:01:00] monogamous tradition. And that is true to the extent that most people have been monogamous. Yeah. I thought you were going to

Simone: say, this is true for poor people.

Malcolm: It's true for poor people.

Malcolm: When a culture is polygynous, one man, many women, there's actually been no stable culture in history with anything close to what we call polyamory in our society. Usually, when you have a multiple partner culture, you have polygyny, which is one man, many women. However, there has been one case I know of, of many men to one woman and this was like in Tibet, like it was in a high resource, scarce region

Simone: of the mountains.

Simone: But, and it's also, I think, commonly with brothers. Yeah, it was basically

Malcolm: only done with brothers. And, and it makes sense why that would work because then the guy knows that the kids are related to him. And it was meant as a form of population control was in those cultures. So that's, that's how it ended up developing and being intergenerationally successful.

Malcolm: It was also cultures that didn't need to worry about neighbors raiding them because they [00:02:00] lived in extremely like they were not competing with their surrounding cultures. They were more competing with their environment. Which is why it was able to become stable, but certainly no culture that's ever really spread.

Malcolm: But why this is relevant. So if you talk about long lived Stable polygynous cultures. There's some Jewish groups that fall into this. There's some groups in Africa that fall into this. Some Muslim groups fall into this. You're typically looking at around 5% of the population will have multiple wives.

Malcolm: People assume it's much more now. Historically, there has been short lived polygynous societies like the Mormon population group where this number was higher at the, the height of, of that part of Mormon history, I think around 20% to 23% of men had multiple wives but it was still the vast minority.

Malcolm: Now where this gets interesting is if I look within our existing culture right now, like the various cultural groups, probably one of the ones I'd say is, is most pro what [00:03:00] we'd call monogamy is the Catholic group, right? However, if you look historically speaking, so we're looking to traditional Catholicism.

Malcolm: You're looking at like the monarchies of Louis the 14th, right? And so when you were saying he would write a book about all of the mistresses he had that everyone knew he

Simone: had. Yeah. Antonia Fraser wrote a great book called Love and Louis the 14th, where she like, it's a long book and it just details all of his lovers.

Simone: And this isn't just secret affairs on the side. This is, you know, people who were titled people. I mean, like it was, it was very well known. Now the Catholic church didn't like it. And they kept saying don't do this. And one of his lovers may have been rumored to actually marry him in the end secretly, though.

Simone: That's not like historically officially documented. So there's interplay and like the Catholic church definitely has. A, a relationship with not being cool with it, like officially, but sort of in practice they're like, I mean, for example, with getting home [00:04:00] with the eighth, right? Like they were, I think they probably would have annulled his marriage and allowed him to jump from one marriage to the next for convenience.

Simone: If there was not a familiar tie with his first wife and the Pope. Yeah, the Catholic Church, I would say in practice. And

Malcolm: they regularly, you know, allowed it. So keep in mind, you know, Louis was king via divine that is what gave him the right to monarchy within his cultural context. When he's saying, why am I king?

Malcolm: I am king because of the church. And, and you know, that did not, the, him having multiple partners and everyone knowing and the extent to which everyone knew, I really can be sort of understated or cannot be overstated. Like the mistresses, who he was choosing as a mistress at the time would determine fashion within like the, the, the court culture.

Simone: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, even to the point where some types of, of court dress like the, the style of disabillé, which basically means sort of like undress we're, we're, we're [00:05:00] said to have been developed. When mistress, like certain certain mistress was pregnant just so like it was a little bit less corseted so she could have her kind of belly like stick out.

Simone: I get better, yeah. Yeah, so like literally that is how pervasive it was and open it was. And now I mean like. This is France. France was really like, you know, known for that kind of thing. You're

Malcolm: acting like it's the only monarchy where it happened. I chose France because it's one of the most famous in, in, in pop culture well documented ones.

Malcolm: And also you write a book about all his mistresses that you would be well aware of. It's such a good book. Talk to the topic. But I think even within our modern society, so if you look at America today let's say America 10 years ago or something, people could say, oh, this was a predominantly monogamous society and there was a great South Park episode on this and the, the central joke of the episode Is a bunch of males on like TV and scientists were trying to figure out why rich men kept cheating on their wives.

Malcolm: And obviously the joke [00:06:00] was every man knew, but they had to pretend like it was very confusing why men kept cheating on women when they became super famous and wealthy. And this was framed around the Tiger Woods controversy and then some other controversies and they would give a monkey a bunch of money and it would go out and cheat on his wife and they were like, this is such a bizarre phenomenon.

Malcolm: But, but the joke being. It's it's obvious why this happens. However, I, I think it's not obvious why it happens and that's what I want to dig into.

Simone: Yeah, I think everyone's trying to say the qu