Alpha Beta is a Bad Dichotomy: Kings vs Knights

We discuss an alternative framework for categorizing men based on ideological aspiration - knights, kings, philosophers and mystics. We define knights as followers with integrity, kings as natural leaders focused on consequences, philosophers as knowledge creators, and mystics as supernatural communicators. We explore the tensions but also symbiosis between these groups in a functional society.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Like in the world of like alpha beta sigma and everything like that, they, they act like not being able to follow someone is a sign of. I don't know what it is. Superiority. No, it's being a bad knight. It's being unable to swallow my pride and just do what needs to be done for the good of my community because I'm not the one making the orders.

That is not a sign of being extra manly or anything like that. Knights are not less masculine than kings. Let's be clear about that. Actually, kings are generally, like a good king is generally more effeminate than a good knight.

So you can see that both groups are submitting in some ways, Kings need to submit in so far as.

They need to efface their pride for the good of their community,

would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Now I know we are here to discuss alpha beta nights. However, I want to first give a shout out to you. Perfect husband and show people that husbands are not always the stereotypes of people see them as. So, you know, the stereotype and [00:01:00] the meme of like the boyfriend walking hand in hand with a girlfriend down the street.

And then he's like looking back at some other really hot girl and the girlfriend, it is like a stock photo is looking horrified at him. You know that meme, right? Yeah. So you and I are like that, except what are you craning your neck at? When we're on our morning walks. Oh, toys, you know me. Toys for the kids!

Yes, you're always like, oh, can I like, you know, even if we're like in a grocery store and there's like a ton, just hanging somewhere from like the middle of a shelf like one of those little like, you know, little matchbox cars or bouncy balls or Anything that's like remotely kid, like, you're like, you have, like, you have to take a close look at it.

Like, will the kids like it? Would this make them happy? Would this make their eyes light up? And you were just so constantly looking for ways to make their lives better and to bring just more joy into this household. And I. I mean, one, you are singular and amazing and I don't think you're actually human because you can't [00:02:00] possibly be because only like not even characters are like you because it's not believable, you know, you're just too perfect.

However, I do want people to know that I think there are probably more marriages like this where, you know There, there aren't like these constant feelings of like jealousy and resentment and what about me and what, you know, but, but, but delight in things that couples care about jointly although you're better at caring about everything and you're way better at showing your love for everyone in this household.

So I just want to. I want to point that out. I want people to know that

Malcolm Collins: I have to add a caveat to this because it actually reminds me of something that happened to me. So this is a result. I don't know if it's a result of me caring about my kids, but one of my optimization functions right now, like background optimization, because it gives me a lot of happiness, right?

Um, uh, something that gives me happiness is giving my kids something that makes them happy when I see them happy. That's like one of my core sources of happiness in life today. And as a result, I am constantly on the lookout for things that I can use [00:03:00] to vampire this happiness for my kids, right?

You know, I'm, I'm just completely selfish action. And it reminds me of how you have these different optimization functions at different ages. I remember for a while after I left the age where like I was having sex all the time was like everyone I wanted to have sex with that I would sometimes just be driving and be like randomly, like a part of my brain that had learned to be passively looking for these things.

Like, that's a good parking lot to have sex in. If I needed to have sex with somebody that's a good back area there where I don't think people would find me because, you know, when you're in like late high school, college, you know, you need to be able to sneak around. You need to find private areas. And and then for a long time after that, I had so trained this like set of like, these are things, which is actually kind of sad, like if my kids ever died, I still think the thing would be running in my head of this is an optimization function around the type of toys that would make this kid happy or would make that kid happy.

And I imagine it must be devastating to people who lose a kid. They walk through a [00:04:00] store or. Older me, I reach an older age and I see things that trigger the, you know, the kids are out of the house now. Oh, the Octavian would have loved this when he was younger.

Simone Collins: This is why hopefully we're having our last kid right around the time Octavian's about to have his first kids.

Malcolm Collins: Oh God, I hope so. But I the topic today is one that I actually find really interesting because it came, you know, one of our listeners was asking about the concept of alpha and beta men and like more of our thoughts on this subject. And I was like, you know, I really don't know if that's the right way to categorize men.

It's not that there are not subordinate And dominant men in the world, because there are, there are men who are, and we talk about this in other episodes, the alpha beta dichotomy is a bit of a misunderstanding when you're talking about primates. What you have was the true alpha was in primate tribes.

is what we call the astronaut Mike Dexter stereotype which is a smart, [00:05:00] competent individual who everyone admires and wants to follow. And is like your captain of the football team, but he's also nice to the nerds because this is what chimpanzees often do. You need to recruit the support of those around you.

And that is how you maintain your brutal oppression of those who would oppose you. It is not the group of dickish guys who are slightly antisocial. That's actually much closer to, in the great apes, what you would call a roaming bachelor group. This is common within some ape groups the unsuccessful.

I

Simone Collins: think even like adolescent lions, this is not just an ape thing,

Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah. But I mean, I try to look at apes for models of human behavior more. Yeah. So with adolescent lions, you'll get this phenomenon, or lions, apes, whatever. You see this in different mammal species where unsuccessful males get kicked out of a group.

Like these are males who think that they're more dominant than they really are within their social circle. And so the dominant males kick them out and the women don't want anything to do with them. [00:06:00] And so they go around and basically in a group of all men act extra macho all the time. And their goal is to try to take over another healthy group so that they can become the new dominant males of that group.

Now, it doesn't often happen. It's sort of a sign of genetic failure. So if you are going around with a group of. Unmatched men acting extra macho I would look at and try to understand the phenomenon of roaming bachelors because that's a better explanation and it is definitely nothing to be proud of.

It is a sign of genetic failure. And it's something that has been common throughout our ape ancestors. Now these roaming