Show full transcript 0:58 you will remember her. And if you didn't, you are going to learn a lot today. It is the 1:02 unbelievable story of two women seemingly unconnected who disappeared about a year apart, 1:09 19-year-old Jenny Gammes of Oregon and 37-year-old Laura Simonson of Minnesota. Now, their whereabouts 1:17 as far as their families were concerned were a mystery until June 5th, 2014, when, sadly, 1:24 both women's bodies were discovered hidden inside two suitcases along a rural Wisconsin 1:31 Well, as you can imagine, local investigators initially had no idea who these women were, 1:37 let alone who might have killed them. 1:40 FBI Special Agent Carrie Gibson was brought onto this case. 1:43 In fact, she had been involved with it somewhat earlier to help put the pieces of the puzzle 1:47 together, and she would eventually help authorities zero in on an unexpected suspect and ultimately 1:55 help bring justice to the families of Laura and Jenny. 1:58 me. 1:58 Agent Gibson is joining us now. 2:01 Nice to have you with us again, Agent Gibson. 2:04 Thank you so much for having me. 2:05 Thank you again for being a part of the suitcase murders. 2:08 You're a licensed psychologist and an FBI special agent or you were until you just 2:13 retired. 2:14 You brought together two really major parts, I think, of a career that can offer insight 2:20 into all kinds of crimes over your 18-year career or 18-plus-year career with the 2:26 FBI. 2:27 Tell me a little bit about how those two parts of your life work together when you got involved 2:33 in investigations. 2:34 So from my standpoint, I had been a clinical and forensic psychologist before I came into 2:39 the Bureau and I had a fascination with wanting to learn more about the why of offender 2:44 behavior. 2:44 And so for me, it was, you know, a natural place to go to learn more about film behavior 2:50 to become a FBI agent. 2:52 And so that was where I started my career was in Minneapolis field office. 2:56 Well, let's talk about that because you were in Minnesota when this discovery was made. 3:01 You had already been looking into the disappearance of Laura Simonson. 3:05 You knew this was a woman whose whereabouts had been a mystery. 3:08 How did you learn about that case and get involved ultimately? 3:12 Laura had went missing in November of 2013, her family had reported her missing right 3:17 around that time frame. 3:18 I didn't become aware that Laura was missing until February of 2014 when there was 3:25 that report me to the FBI in Minneapolis about her disappearance and the assistance 3:31 of FBI really wanting to be brought in to help find where she was at. 3:37 And so it was really in that timeframe of February 2014 that I reached out to local 3:41 law enforcement where the family had made a missing person notification. 3:46 And I want to talk more about her, but also the other victims. 3:49 So let's talk about this disturbing crime scene. 3:52 two suitcases with remains of two women on the side of the road found by a 3:57 highway work crew. I mean it's just mind-boggling as an FBI agent when you 4:03 first hear about somebody discarding remains that way. What comes to mind for 4:06 you right away? Just really discarding them like they were garbage. Just really 4:12 thrown off to the side of the road and it was obviously very sad to find 4:18 to young women in that way. But we had known that Laura was missing. And so when we got the 4:25 reports of the individuals being found on the side of the road, I knew right away that it was Laura. 4:32 And so it just was a matter of time before we were able to identify her as one of the victims. 4:37 Yeah. So two different women, that's the one thing. I mean, it's one thing for you to 4:41 find Laura. But now she is also thrown away, if you will, along with another woman. You 4:48 We were working with local police to try to get some answers here, so let's talk about 4:51 this. 4:52 I mean, it would take three weeks ultimately for them to identify Laura for sure. 4:57 What did you know about Laura? 5:00 She was a mother of six children. 5:02 She had also had some struggles in her life. 5:04 Yes. 5:05 So Laura had actually was a mother of seven children and she had just lost one of her 5:09 children in July of 2013 before she went missing. 5:14 And so she had been struggling. 5:16 She's one of these individuals that we would refer to as a high risk had struggled 5:21 Not only just with with life in general, but had has mental illness 5:27 Had, you know different volatile relationships had really struggled with addiction and it found herself in you know many 5:34 different high risk situations and so 5:37 When this happened for her she was at the lowest point in her life. She was very depressed. She was suicidal 5:43 You know, she encounters him a month after her daughter had passed away. 5:47 She felt responsible for her daughter's death. 5:49 And so she really just in that point in time was very vulnerable. 5:54 Let's talk about the other victim, 19-year-old Jenny Gammis. 5:57 She was a teen mom. 5:58 When you talk about vulnerability, also somebody who was vulnerable. 6:02 Folks who saw our program Friday night heard more about her story. 6:06 Tell us about her. 6:08 Yes. 6:08 Yes, Jenny, another sad story, a young female who, as you stated, was a young mother. 6:15 She ultimately had grown up in a foster care environment, didn't really have any close 6:21 supports to anybody in her family, and in fact, nobody had reported Jenny missing. 6:27 And so when we found Laura and we found, you know, at that point in time, Jane Doe, 6:32 we didn't know it was Jenny. 6:34 That's what made it so challenging. 6:35 She had never been reported missing. 6:37 She moved around a lot and we've seen more transients. 6:41 And so ultimately, when we were able to identify her, 6:44 it took some time. 6:46 Which is why nobody was really looking for her initially 6:49 because they did not know she was missing. 6:52 You zeroed in on something though, two vulnerable women. 6:55 And we wanna talk about that. 6:56 We need to take a quick break, but when we come back, 6:58 we're gonna talk a little bit about 7:00 who the people are now, 7:01 but the why is gonna be the big question here 7:03 we want to explore. 7:04 So, stay with us and you stay with us and we'll be right back. 7:15 This show is sponsored by Who Killed Angel Harris, a podcast from ID. 7:20 On June 25, 2011, 31-year-old Angel Harris was found murdered in Gainesville, Florida. 7:26 More than 15 years later, her case remains unsolved. 7:30 But on the new podcast Who Killed Angel Harris, a podcast from ID, host Sarah Kalin travels 7:36 to Florida to uncover what happened to Angel and who may be responsible. 7:40 Retired Gainesville police detective Courtney Roberts joined Sarah to review 7:44 evidence. That includes surveillance footage showing Angel with an unidentified 7:49 man shortly before her death and then the same man walking away alone. Soon the 7:54 search for answers in one murder turns into an investigation of five 7:58 unsolved homicides. Who killed Angel Harris? Listen to who killed Angel 8:04 Harris wherever you get your podcasts. 8:10 Welcome back to 2020 The Aftershow. 8:13 I'm speaking with FBI special agent, Kerry Gibson, who is giving us kind of a deep look 8:18 at our latest episode for 2020 called The Suitcase Murders. 8:23 She was involved with investigators helping them solve a mystery of two women from very 8:28 different walks of life who met the same chilling fate. 8:32 Police began looking closely at the digital history of 37-year-old Laura 8:36 Simonson, who was the first victim they were able to identify. And they were 8:41 looking at her cell phone, her computer. They found some surprising things. She had 8:46 been on bondage websites, communicating in online BDSM chat rooms. 8:52 Agent Gibson, they zeroed in on one man that she had been talking to. They 8:55 called him Mr. Handcuffs. Tell us about those conversations and what you 9:00 made of that? 9:01 Yeah, so that was his handle that for his name online and that's where he had met Laura 9:08 and that's where they started their conversations until eventually they took them to direct messaging. 9:14 And ultimately it was all about power and control from his perspective and it was really 9:19 set up for him to be the person that dictated what would be said, what would happen and 9:28 for her to be subservient to him. So he would be dominant in this situation and she would 9:33 be the subservient one and ultimately would be referred to as the slave, never referred 9:39 to by name, very much dehumanizing to her. 9:42 So this wasn't about sexual thrills for her, really. It was really a control kind of situation, 9:49 wasn't it? 9:49 Well, BDSM is a lifestyle and I think that, you know, there's always a potential for 9:53 arousal to be attached to various aspects of it. But really at that point in time in her life, 9:58 she was looking to be controlled. She didn't want to have to live life because she was very 10:03 depressed about losing her child. And so ultimately, she fell into this submissive role. She'd been 10:08 in this role before. So she knew, she knew about the BDSM lifestyle. And at that point in 10:15 time, she just really didn't want to think for herself or be responsible for herself. She 10:22 what was really shocking to us in our reporting, Mr. Hancoves turned out to be a man by the name 10:28 of Stephen Zelich and he was a former police officer. That was really stunning to us and our 10:35 team. What did you make about that and what did you learn about him? You know at first I was 10:39 surprised by that just like you guys were just again because we don't expect that type of behavior 10:45 from a law enforcement officer but it was very important. We learned very early on that he 10:50 was a former police officer. So from that standpoint, for me as an investigator in assisting 10:57 on this case, it was very important is that he knows all the aspects of what it is like 11:03 to be a law enforcement officer, but also what it's like for a criminal investigation. 11:07 And so ultimately, he would have the upper hand, potentially in a case like this, because 11:12 he would know what law enforcement would be looking for. 11:15 Yeah, because it is about power. And he also came from a law enforcement family. 11:18 his father had been a police officer, which is what we talked about. I want to point out one thing 11:23 that we found to be very strange in our reporting. We interviewed one of Zelich's former girlfriends 11:27 who described him from years ago, kind of a neat freak of a guy, apartment was very meticulous. 11:33 But then later on, when police actually went into his apartment much later, they found a place 11:39 that was really pretty disgusting. I mean, one of our folks said it was almost like a reminiscent 11:44 of silence of the lambs. I mean, what do you make of that? A guy who began one way and then suddenly 11:49 police see a very different scene in his apartment? Well, I think it's all, it didn't make sense in 11:55 some ways when you think about the obsessive nature that would go with him having to be very 11:59 clean and neat in his apartment when he first started out, very rigid and controlling in his 12:06 own life in that situation. And so that doesn't surprise me. And then as it progresses for 12:13 him. I think what you start to see is, you know, maybe early on, when he was finding solace in 12:20 the BDSM activities in the communities, he was able to keep it more controlled and contained in 12:26 certain areas, right? So his home was still able to be very neat, and it was obsessively neat. 12:30 So you see some of those underpinnings of some of those psychological constructs that would be 12:34 present that I would see as a psychologist. As time goes on, though, and he starts to lose 12:40 lose that job, lose those contacts with other people that that are in his life. No one's 12:46 coming to his house anymore. No one's coming to visit him. It becomes easier and easier 12:50 to fall more and more into this, this other side of his life, the fantasy life, right? 12:56 And so then that's where you start to see it turn into this, this scenario as, as 13:00 you said, the signs of the lamp scenario where ultimately he, he thinks it's a good 13:04 option to have a female in his fridge for 15 months and that that's seen as an option 13:11 for him. 13:13 And then, you know, continuing to keep her outside after that with Laura in the trunk. 13:19 And it really goes to show that now he's full in the other life in that fantasy life 13:24 and he's getting more out of that than he is his regular life. 13:27 Clearly a new persona had emerged. 13:29 Yeah, Mr. Hancoffs, and that's where he was really embracing all that that he was doing 13:35 on the Colour Me page and all those contacts that he had, because that's where he had the 13:40 power and that's where he had the control. 13:41 And playing on the police connection too, Mr. Hancoffs, well, one of the things that 13:47 we were able to to reveal on our program, Laura and Zellich, checking into a motel 13:52 together. 13:53 And the next day cameras show him checking out alone, which is quite revealing. 13:59 Stunning footage in our episode on Friday, and I talk about what you and your investigators 14:04 made of that. 14:05 I mean, clearly it tells you a lot if he goes into the motel with a woman and comes out 14:09 alone. 14:09 Absolutely. 14:10 I mean, I remember having conversations with the investigators, again, she was reported 14:15 missing in November of 2013. 14:18 I don't get involved in this investigation until February 2014, but in part of those 14:23 conversations, those facts were being shared with me. The fact that she had checked in and paid cash 14:30 and then ultimately he had checked out and that there was no video footage of her. 14:37 And I remember asking, well, where is she? What do we know? You know, what did you find out? 14:44 And they just said the assumption was that she was likely from the people at the hotel, 14:48 the assumption was she was out in the car. And I just said, well, we can't assume anything 14:52 thing here. We have to try to figure out where she's at. And you know, obviously the footage 14:57 you see him pushing out the luggage cart with the suitcases. And I remember that very distinctly, 15:04 thinking about that and thinking about, you know, what that could mean in that moment. 15:09 So shocking. And I have to tell you, I reported on a story years ago for 2020 that had some 15:14 similar connections here too, because there was somebody who checked into a place and we saw 15:20 him leave with a suitcase and ultimately there was a woman's body found there. 15:25 I mean it's just really chilling stuff. What else shocked us was ultimately 15:30 police start talking to Zelich. He is a former police officer so they know 15:35 they've got to sort of handle him in a way that might be sort of careful 15:38 because he knows what to expect. I want to play a portion of the police 15:42 interview where he is openly discussing with the officers what he 15:46 says happen to both Jenny and Lara. Let's take a listen. 15:52 Steve, can I talk to you? Will you say the first one? Which one? Which name? I only know 15:57 my names. I don't know which one is first one and second one. Jenny? Jenny? Okay. Thank 16:04 you. 16:05 Have you heard of her last name? Gomez. No. Well, something similar to that. Gomez. 16:11 something similar to romance. She contacted, was interested in, you know, you know, coming 16:19 out here. She was from West Coast. Let me think a moment. Oregon, I believe. Basically I had 16:34 the rope around her neck and pulled it either hard enough and long enough 16:40 without releasing it and resulting in her death. 16:51 I'm sorry. 16:52 I got way out of it. 16:53 And obviously my fault, and I'm going to pay a price for that. 17:00 His blunt comments. 17:01 He's there in his security guard outfit, 17:04 because now he's a security guard, no longer a police officer. 17:06 but he's talking with the the police as if he's one of them um and that was really intriguing to 17:12 us and obviously the police were using a tactic there with him right yes that was one of the 17:17 things that we had discussed uh we want you know in any this type of situation we're gonna 17:22 bring him in they're gonna talk with him and we want to be able to have him feel comfortable 17:27 we want him to be able to to share um and ultimately we want him to tell us what happened 17:32 to Jenny and Laura and so the decision was made at that point in time you know 17:38 through different resources we had at the FBI we were able to utilize the FBI's 17:42 behavioral analysis unit and one of the suggestions that the profiler had made 17:49 about Morton retired FBI profiler had made was that we should really appeal 17:53 to that we should really align with him in that way because that would be 17:56 disarming and so ultimately when you see us all interacting with him on the 18:01 video. That's exactly what we're doing. We're really trying to make him feel like he is still 18:07 part of this team and really use that in a way that could be disarming to him so that he would be 18:13 more open and honest in his disclosures. To keep him talking. And our team was really struck by 18:18 the fact that he seemed to be sort of impressed that the FBI was talking with him. He obviously 18:23 has some knowledge of what police might be looking for. Did that make it harder or in some ways 18:27 it make it easy, especially with your psychology background, to kind of think how to approach him. 18:33 So I think his background as a law enforcement officer was challenging being up to when we 18:39 ultimately arrested him and were able to speak with him. Because at that, you know, 18:43 before he could hide, he could do different things, he could be more covert and know what 18:48 law enforcement would be looking for. After the fact, it was really easy to be able to align 18:53 with him because we are all law enforcement officers and we're able to talk to him in a way 18:58 that we would talk with our co-workers and ultimately we could see that was having an 19:02 impact on him. We could see that he was enamored with the law enforcement and he was enamored 19:08 with the FBI. He was enamored with my background as a clinical and forensic psychologist who had 19:13 worked with sex offenders. He was enamored by the knowledge I had about BDSM and disorder 19:19 And all of that led to him being very open and talking through the scenarios. 19:26 Now he always was very calm and he was always very blunt and matter of fact in his communication 19:30 that never changed. 19:31 But he ultimately, you could see that that had an impact on him and it was disarming. 19:36 Yeah, disarming but also enough that he was starting to give up, you know, the details 19:40 and you know, he had the hubris there. 19:42 Psychologically speaking, what do you think attracted Laura and Jenny to this 19:47 type of a personality? 19:48 So I think for both Laura and Jenny really didn't psychologically have the strength to feel and understand what their worth could be. 19:58 And so ultimately they fell into his control, his manipulation because in that setting, given their challenges that they had encountered and really their feeling that they were broken and damaged, that this was really their best. 20:17 He had somebody who wanted to care for them, even if it was in the slave capacity, it was 20:23 still somebody who wanted them. 20:24 And so they were willing to settle for that. 20:26 And so it was just very sad. 20:27 I felt very connected to both Laura and Jenny because of the understanding, the vulnerabilities. 20:33 I felt very connected to their psychological underpinnings of what led them to find solace 20:40 in this life. 20:41 They don't know their worth. 20:42 And that's why it's so important that we help people understand that they're worth 20:45 more than this. 20:46 Yeah, that was the sad part of it. You know, you're absolutely right. He truly preyed on these women. 20:51 One of the really disturbing parts of this case is that police would learn that 20:55 Zellich had actually kept Jenny's body in a refrigerator in his home for more than a year 21:00 and stored both Lara and Jenny's bodies in the trunk of his car for months. It was in cold 21:06 weather, but then ultimately the weather warmed up and he had to try to figure out what to 21:10 with these bodies. Let's talk about the mindset here. 21:13 That was actually, for this case, like that is one of those factors that was unexpected 21:19 for all of us. We did not see that coming. But as we unpack the case, it made more and 21:24 more sense. And so he ultimately kills Jenny in August, I think it's August 28th of 2012. 21:33 He kills Laura in, you know, November 2nd of 2013 and those bodies that are found in June of 2014. 21:45 And I think that the reality is, is that for him, it goes way beyond concealment. 21:51 Because, you know, some people might say, well, gosh, it just took him some time to deal with it, to figure out what he was going to do. 21:58 And it's bigger than that. 22:01 He had way too much time to figure it out. 22:03 And he knew as a law enforcement officer 22:05 that he needed to figure it out and still he chose not to. 22:08 So from this, from our kind of discussions 22:11 and thinking about this case, 22:13 it was really, it became apparent, right? 22:15 If you think about it through that lens 22:17 of the BDSM lifestyle, they're his property. 22:22 And ultimately for someone like Stephen Zelich, 22:25 this was all about power and control. 22:27 And in a part of his life where most days he had no control or nothing really fascinating 22:34 happening, this represented a part of his life where he had absolute control. 22:40 He had succeeded in ultimately taking their lives, which was the ultimate power and control 22:45 for him. 22:45 Well, as you say, he had control until he was eventually arrested and your team were 22:50 able to zero in. 22:52 We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we want to talk about 22:54 the charges that he faced, what ultimately happened, and also talk about his prison sentence 23:00 and get some advice from you about women out there, and maybe give us some thoughts on red 23:05 flags that women need to know in online dating. 23:09 So don't go anywhere, Agent Gibson, if you would stay with us, and don't you go anywhere 23:12 because you're going to want to hear these details when we come back. 23:22 This show is sponsored by Vinted. 23:24 It's officially fall, and it seems like everywhere you look, everybody's wearing 23:28 adorable fall sweaters. 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Plus there are no seller fees 24:20 so you keep every dollar you earn. Give your clothes a new life with 24:24 With Vintit, download the Vintit app today to start listing your clothing now with no 24:28 fees. 24:29 That's V-I-N-T-E-D. 24:35 Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. 24:37 I am speaking with FBI Special Agent Kerry Gibson, just retired FBI agent Gibson, who 24:43 helped investigators solve a disturbing mystery, the case of two women murdered and left 24:48 on an open road in suitcases. 24:50 We covered the story on Friday Night's program. 24:53 it was called the suitcase murders. And we are talking not only about the dangers that these 24:58 particular women faced, but I'm going to give you some insight into the program that maybe you didn't 25:03 get to see on Friday night. Agent Gibson, you met Stephen Zelich, the man charged with those 25:08 murders after his arrest. You got the impressions of him. He was sort of smooth and sort of, 25:14 you know, a very much in control guy. He ultimately, you know, had to fess up. He said that 25:20 these crimes were an accident that he was, 25:23 you know, he admitted that he had harmed these women 25:25 but said it was an accident. 25:27 You've spent your career studying criminal offenders, 25:30 choices they make, this man was a former police officer 25:33 as we said, which was even shocking to us. 25:36 What did you make of him and did it surprise you 25:40 at the end? 25:40 I mean, he didn't really quite claim responsibility 25:43 but he ultimately did tell you that he did this. 25:46 Yes, I wasn't surprised that he didn't fully come forward and share specifics related to 25:53 ultimately owning that it was purposeful behavior that he had completed. 25:58 But I mean, when you, when I had the chance to interact with him, what became very apparent 26:03 is that for him, his, this was really all he had in his life was, was this type of 26:09 lifestyle. 26:10 When you would read his words on paper, he sounded very intimidating, very controlling, 26:18 very scary. 26:19 But when you interacted with him face to face, he was really pathetic. 26:24 It became very clear that there's a reason why he was thriving on the online space and 26:30 not in life. 26:31 And so for him, he ultimately admitted that he killed both Jenny and Laura, and he did it accidentally during breath play, a BDSM activity that is called a more of an edge play session because of the deadly nature of it. 26:51 But he did admit though that ultimately when he was driving to pick up Laura that he was 26:59 thinking about Jenny and he was thinking about how she died during breath play and he had 27:05 made a decision that he was going to do breath play with Laura even though it had been deadly 27:09 for Jenny. 27:10 So we did get him to admit that part of it, which was important as well. 27:15 But it was very clear from his behavior that it was definitely something that he 27:19 to consider and plan and prepared and knew what he was doing. 27:22 Yeah, and breath play is a strangulation, right? 27:25 Yes, it's a restriction of the breathing, yes. 27:27 There must be a lesson in this. 27:29 I mean, I want to talk about warning signs for women, 27:32 but when you think about somebody hiding 27:34 in plain sight like this, do their stories teach us 27:38 anything about what we can learn about people 27:42 who might be lurking out there? 27:45 I think so. 27:46 I mean, this case taught me a lot. 27:48 it taught all of the investigators a lot. He was very calm and calculated and wasn't very anxious 27:54 at all no matter when he interacted with the law enforcement. And that was something that I think 27:59 all of us kind of felt with the stereotype of well gosh if he had something to hide he would 28:04 have been anxious. And the reality is that if you've you know conditioned yourself that this is 28:08 your life and this is what you like to do you're not going to be anxious about it because 28:12 it's a part of who you are. So even when you know law enforcement approached him in March 28:17 2014 and interviewed him and he gave his DNA, you know, gave consent for his DNA and he gave 28:25 consent for his computer to be taken. I remember everybody talking about gosh, that he was so calm 28:30 but ultimately Jenny and Laura were in the trunk of his car at that time and so he needed to 28:35 be compliant. He needed law enforcement to leave and so ultimately he did that and just 28:41 being very calm and in control. And so I think again, we have to, we have to, you know, test 28:47 our assumptions, we have to understand that there's that if we assume someone's going to 28:52 respond a certain way, again, that's based off of our thoughts and our patterns, it's not 28:56 necessarily based off of theirs. And so we don't really know all of that going into this. 29:00 And so I think for, for him to be hiding in plain sight, he knew that police would 29:05 probably feel more comfortable if he wasn't anxious, he knew if he consented everything 29:09 that they would probably feel better. 29:11 He knew that if he just kept calm, 29:13 that that would maybe buy him some time. 29:16 Again, from a long-term perspective, 29:19 this wasn't looking good 29:20 because he had two bodies in his trunk 29:22 and it's in March of 2014 29:23 and he's gonna eventually have to figure that out. 29:26 But what was so interesting to me 29:27 is like that didn't really matter to him 29:29 because he was so caught up in the fantasy 29:31 of the BDSM activities 29:34 and his contacts with females online. 29:36 Again, his obsession and his fantasy base, from my perspective as a psychologist, kept 29:44 him compelled and focused in a certain area way beyond what would have been seen as better 29:51 judgment for most. 29:52 Most people would have taken care of business he didn't. 29:54 Yeah. 29:55 Very creepy stuff to think that he's being questioned by police and he's got bodies 29:59 right there. 30:00 Well, fortunately for us, you were on this case and you helped not only solve it, 30:04 but also help us understand. 30:06 So give us some thoughts there. 30:07 There are a lot of women out there 30:08 in the online dating world. 30:10 I mean, this is very different 30:11 because as you said, BDSM was sort of different. 30:15 But there are people who are meeting people online. 30:18 And I'm sure there must be some red flags 30:20 other than just somebody being a jerk. 30:22 But give us some ideas for women 30:24 who are out there with some patterns to be aware of 30:27 that might possibly save them from something dangerous. 30:30 You know, absolutely. I mean, no matter, you know, what type of, you know, forum you're in or who you're meeting, again, everything should be in this consensual place where you're able to openly talk and be able to, you know, either consent or say no to 30:50 something. 30:51 And in this situation, it was very, you know, clear from go that what he said is what mattered and they didn't even really have a voice. 30:59 and so right there, that's a problem. Any type of relationship should be bi-directional and balanced 31:04 and equal. And so if there's a hierarchy or there is a structure that doesn't allow your voice to 31:10 be heard, that's going to be a red flag. Another red flag is he really wanted to isolate them 31:16 from everybody. He wanted them to delete their Facebook pages. He wanted them to, you know, 31:23 delete their accounts. He wanted them to just disappear. And I called it the disappear game. 31:28 like he was telling them to just disappear in their life because ultimately they were going to be 31:34 his slave and so they didn't need any of their possessions but the reality is is what what it 31:39 seemed to me is that he was making it harder for law enforcement to figure out what happened and 31:44 so again nobody should should isolate you no one should take you away from your family no one 31:50 should take you away from your friends and if somebody is trying to control you in that 31:54 way. That's a red flag. And, and I just think it's so important to recognize that that that's not 32:01 okay. That's not normal. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not something to tolerate. Yeah, that's, that's 32:06 very, very good advice. Especially when you talk about that whole isolationism. It's, it's, 32:11 it's really scary stuff. Well, fortunately for the families of Laura Simonson and Jenny 32:16 Gammes, you were able to solve this case and bring at least some answers to them. 32:21 And we thank you so much, Agent Gibson. 32:25 Congratulations on your retirement 32:26 and thank you for the incredible work on, 32:28 not only on this case, but on Friday night's episode 32:31 and for being with us today. 32:32 Thank you so much. 32:33 Of course. 32:34 And thank you for being with us. 32:35 Of course, you can find 2020 on Friday nights on ABC 32:37 and you can stream episodes like this one anytime 32:41 on Disney Plus and Hulu. 32:43 Take good care of everybody. 32:53 Fall never arrives all at once. 32:55 Burst the air that in the light 32:58 And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. 33:02 A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer,
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