SpyCast

From August to December 2016, then Marine Special Operations Officer Ivan Ingraham lived on an assault ship off the coast of Sirte, a city in northern Libya that lies between Tripoli and Benghazi. It was the hometown of Muammar Gaddafi, who invested in Sirte before dying there during Libya’s first civil war. In the midst of a second civil war, ISIS had filled a power vacuum and overrun the city, sending its civilians fleeing. At the request of Libya’s UN-backed Government of National Accord, the United States provided support. Ivan led a five-man special operations team attached to a Marine Expeditionary Unit to help push ISIS out. The mission was known as Operation Odyssey Lightning. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ For more information about the International Spy Museum, visit: https://www.spymuseum.org/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. This episode was produced by Flora Warshaw and the team at Goat Rodeo. At the International Spy Museum, Mike Mincey and Memphis Vaughan III are our video editors. Emily Rens is our graphic designer. Joshua Troemel runs our SPY social media. Amanda Ohlke is our Director of Adult Education and Mira Cohen is the Vice President of Programs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At the CIA headquarters in Langley, you will find Kryptos, a large curved copper panel that holds the letters to four encrypted messages. The first three messages- K1, K2, and K3- were solved in the nineties, but K4 continued to mystify cryptographers for decades. That is until Jim Sanborn, the artist who created Kryptos, decided to auction off the plain text and the coding charts that can crack the very code to K4. This week, guest host Flora Warshaw sits down to talk with Bobby Livingston, the auctioneer who recently sold Jim Sanborn's private Kryptos archive for a staggering amount. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ For more information about the International Spy Museum, visit: https://www.spymuseum.org/x And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected], This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. This episode was produced by Flora Warshaw and the team at Goat Rodeo. At the International Spy Museum, Mike Mincey and Memphis Vaughan III are our video editors. Emily Rens is our graphic designer. Joshua Troemel runs our SPY social media. Amanda Ohlke is our Director of Adult Education and Mira Cohen is the Vice President of Programs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bob Wallace was appointed Deputy Director of the CIA’s Office of Technical Service in 1995 and became its director three years later. In other words, he was the CIA’s “Q.” The storied office dealt in microdots and secret writing, creating innovations that spanned concealments, forged documents, surveillance equipment, covert communications, and special weapons. In this interview, Sasha and Bob sit down to discuss the tactics and innovations he has never shared before, ranging from the low-tech to the Internet Age, to the devices and techniques used in the Global War on Terrorism. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by email at [email protected], This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. This episode was produced by Flora Warshaw and the team at Goat Rodeo. At the International Spy Museum, Mike Mincey and Memphis Vaughan III are our video editors. Emily Rens is our graphic designer. Joshua Troemel runs our SPY social media. Amanda Ohlke is our Director of Adult Education and Mira Cohen is the Vice President of Programs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The CIA’s book club, known by the codename QRHELPFUL, was a secret 35-year program born of the fear that communism would dominate the globe. About 10 million books were smuggled into the Soviet Union during the Cold War, transported by trucks and yachts, in tins and luggage, and even dropped from balloons. The agency believed that the literature could win hearts and minds, turning citizens of the Soviet Bloc into dissidents. It’s all documented in author Charlie English’s new book, The CIA Book Club, the first narrative account of this program. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by email at [email protected], This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. This episode was produced by Flora Warshaw and the team at Goat Rodeo. At the International Spy Museum, Mike Mincey and Memphis Vaughan III are our video editors. Emily Rens is our graphic designer. Joshua Troemel runs our SPY social media. Amanda Ohlke is our Director of Adult Education and Mira Cohen is the Vice President of Programs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For decades, California-based engineer Chi Mak quietly stole secrets on war-fighting technologies. He and his family members shared the intelligence with spies in China, giving Beijing astounding insights they hadn’t earned. Former FBI Special Agent James Gaylord takes us back to the elaborate investigation in 2004. Evidence gathered by his squad, call sign “SARA-4,” broke a string of FBI failures in the courtroom. Chi went to prison, but new problems arose. Jim’s account is documented in his book, Chasing Chi. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected], This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No other American has a family history quite like Christine Kuehn. Through years of doing painstaking interviews, hunting down letters, and pouring through FBI records, Christine learned that her German-born aunt had a fling with Nazi politician Joseph Goebbels. When he found out she was half-Jewish, Goebbels sent the family to Hawaii to spy. After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Christine’s grandfather was found guilty of providing intelligence to the Japanese. In this episode we hear how Christine Kuehn strung together her family secrets to tell her family history in her book, Family of Spies, which is coming out November 25th. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected], This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In our last episode, author Stuart Reid peeled back the curtain on 'The Lumumba Plot,' the CIA’s plan to assassinate Patrice Lumumba, the first democratically-elected Prime Minister of the Congo. Station Chief Larry Devlin was central to the CIA’s 1960 assassination plot. He never had to carry it out, but Lumumba was later killed in another plot that Devlin knew about, according to diplomatic cables released in 2013. Today, we'll share more of our conversation with Stuart Reid. But first, we’re going back into our archives to bring you Devlin in his own words. In 2007, a year before he passed away, Devlin sat down with the International Spy Museum's Founding Director Peter Earnest to talk about his time in the Congo. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected], This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Congo was just gaining its independence from Belgium in 1960 when its first democratically elected leader, Patrice Lumumba, faced an existential crisis: mutiny in his new army, followed by an unwelcome intervention by Belgian forces. Lumumba had hoped the U.S. would help, but when Washington turned its back, Lumumba turned to Moscow. And so began a CIA operation to assassinate Lumumba to stop the feared spread of Communism in Africa. The story is documented in The Lumumba Plot, a book by author Stuart Reid. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected] This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Russian drones and warplanes have been increasingly breaching the airspace of NATO countries. Admiral Joachim Rühle, (ret.) is the former Chief of Staff of the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, the headquarters of Command Operations - including defense, deterrence, and training to Ukrainians - in Belgium. He talked about Moscow’s incursions, its acts of sabotage, and how to manage this complex alliance. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jessica Brandt knows a lot about influence. She was the director of the Foreign Malign Influence Center, which served as intermediary between the U.S. intelligence community and the public. It alerted private citizens and the public to disinformation operations orchestrated by adversaries overseas. Jessica explains how the toolkit has gotten larger, more sophisticated, and is being wielded by more countries than ever before. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Keith Melton is a historian who’s been an advisor to the US Intelligence Community for decades. An avid collector and board member at The International Spy Museum, Keith has donated thousands of artifacts, and one of the most historically important is the axe used to assassinate Leon Trotsky. Keith found the weapon after decades of searching. In 2007, he spoke with Peter Earnest, the founding executive director of the International Spy Museum, about Trotsky’s assassination and tracking down the weapon used for the job. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected], "This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vinny Troia is at home on the Dark Web. The veteran hacker has developed relationships with cyberactors who have quietly stolen sensitive data from the far corners of the world. Vinny sells that data to law enforcement and intelligence agencies, like the CIA. His book, Grey Area: Dark Web Data Collection and the Future of OSINT, is out this October. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Keith Bulfin was a banker, not a spy. But then came a special client–a supposed coffee importer who was actually a banker for Mexican and Colombian drug cartels. Soon, U.S. authorities were knocking on Keith’s door. He ended up behind bars in a maximum security prison. While in prison, Bulfin ended up befriending leaders of drug cartels and eventually became their private banker, while secretly feeding intelligence to the U.S. government. It was a descent into a world few see and fewer survive. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This Thursday marks the 24th anniversary of the September 11th terrorist attacks, which spawned a decade-long search for the man behind them – Osama Bin Laden. Ed Bogan was the Chief of Operations for the CIA Counterterrorism Center’s Pakistan / Afghanistan Department. He takes us into agency headquarters, where he oversaw the raid on Bin Laden’s compound, and tells us what lessons can be learned from The Global War on Terror. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s been 50 years since the assassination of the CIA’s former Station Chief in Athens, Richard Welch. At the time, he was the agency’s highest level officer killed in the line of duty. A Greek, Marxist terrorist group called 17 November claimed responsibility for his death, but that was just the beginning. Former senior operations officer Ralph Mariani remembers that time and carries on Welch’s memory. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We return to November, 1979 when radical Iranian students seized the US Embassy in Tehran and took dozens of Americans hostage. Mark and Cora Lijek were two American officials stuck in Tehran, and in 2008 they shared their story with the late Peter Earnest, the founding director of the International Spy Museum. And this time they were joined by retired CIA officer Tony Mendez, who passed away in 2019. Tony helped plan and execute an elaborate deception and disguise operation, exfiltrating the diplomats before the Iranians figured it out. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We'll go back in time to November, 1979 when radical Iranian students seized the US Embassy in Tehran and took dozens of Americans hostage. Six US officials managed to find refuge with Canadian embassy staff, and 11 weeks later, the CIA led a daring operation to sneak them out of Iran disguised as a Hollywood film crew. Mark and Cora Lijek were two of those officials, and in 2008 they shared their story with the late Peter Earnest, the founding director of the International Spy Museum. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Reza Olangian, a dual US-Iranian citizen, left behind his life in Silicon Valley to spy for Iran in the capital. And by the time DEA special agent Jeffrey James Higgins found out about him in 2011, Olangian was trying to acquire hundreds of surface-to-air missiles. That kicked off an elaborate, multi-country sting operation… and a 25-year prison sentence. Jeffrey believes the Iranians are using more surrogates to acquire weapons today. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Washington and Tehran have a long and complicated history, with tensions that rise, fall and then rise again. Just this summer, we watched the U.S. and Israel strike Iran’s nuclear infrastructure. This month, SpyCast is bringing you a series of special episodes on Iran, looking back and forward, to unveil the country’s intelligence priorities, capabilities, and tactics. First in our series is Fariba Nawa. She's a journalist who shows us that if you want to learn about Iranian intelligence, one of the best places to look is Turkey. It may be a member of NATO, but it's also a country where Iranian dissidents flee because of their shared border. And as Tehran tries to lure certain Iranians back, Israel tries to recruit them. It's a complex, deadly game that Fariba has been bravely documenting through the podcast Lethal Dissent. Listen to Lethal Dissent here or wherever you get your podcasts. Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Codenamed "Agent 202," Kendall Myers went undetected as a spy for Cuba for nearly 30 years. He worked at the State Department’s Foreign Service Institute, secretly spying for Cuba out of an earnest love for the island, its people, and their leader Fidel Castro. Myers was caught in 2009, after he retired. State Department Security Specialist and former Diplomatic Security Special Agent Bill Stowell was part of the team that worked the case. He shared new exclusive details with SpyCast, as Myers continues to serve a life sentence for espionage. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Queen of Cuba with Peter J. Lapp The Skinny on Cuban Intelligence with Ean Forsyth | SpyCast Caught in the Act : Catching Che Guevara (Cuba and the CIA) Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today he’s one of the most wanted men in the world, but before Jan Marsalek fled to Russia, he was the COO of payment-processing firm Wirecard. Officials and investigators say Marsalek used the company to finance Moscow’s covert operations and spy networks in Africa and Europe. In 2020, nearly €2 billion vanished from Wirecard, along with Marsalek. Financial Times reporter Sam Jones has been uncovering new details through his reporting on Season 3 of Hot Money: Agent of Chaos. To hear more, listen to Season 3 of Hot Money: Agent of Chaos on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Russia's Fake Identity Assembly Line in Brazil | SpyCast "The Minions": Putin's Expendable Spies | SpyCast Russian Assassinations in the UK: Inside Three Notorious Cases with Historian Nigel West Curator's Corner: Kevin P. Riehle on Russian Intelligence Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week we spoke with the International Spy Museum's Executive Director, Colonel Chris Costa. His decades-long career in the intelligence community spanned multiple continents, running sensitive operations in Panama, Bosnia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, where he earned two Bronze stars for his human intelligence contributions. Later, Costa advised Navy Seals as a civilian and eventually assumed the role of Executive Director here at the International Spy Museum. In this interview, we zeroed in on 2017 when he was detailed to the White House as the Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Counterterrorism. Looking for more thoughtful analysis of contemporary intelligence issues? Check out our program Spy Chat – Each month, Chris sits down with a special guest for a live online discussion of the latest intelligence, national security, and terrorism issues in the news. Check our program calendar to register! If you liked this episode, check out these links: Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Special Guest: Tal Sullivan An Evening with H.R. McMaster Operación Jaque - The Daring Rescue Mission That Freed 15 Hostages Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Born out of a major Chinese cyberattack that stole personal information from millions of federal government employees, the Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency calls itself ‘America’s Gatekeeper.’ Now five years into its existence, it’s responsible for overseeing most of the security clearances for government personnel and contractors. DCSA’s director David Cattler, formerly NATO’s Assistant Secretary General for Intelligence and Security, assesses the current threats. If you liked this episode, check out these links: DOGE Layoffs and the Counterintelligence Threats They Pose | SpyCast Dir. of National Intelligence Roundtable: 2025 Society for Intelligence History Panel Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Carol Rollie Flynn Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When a Russian spy was arrested in Brazil in 2022, authorities were shocked to discover that he seemed to have a real birth certificate and authentic citizenship documents. The incident sparked a multi-year investigation that uncovered a network of Russian operatives living and working in Brazil – Their false identities supported by genuine documents. New York Times journalist Jane Bradley, who investigated the spy network, joined us to discuss the case as Brazilian law enforcement continues to piece together answers today. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Ghost Stories: The Hunt for Russian Spies in the US | SpyCast "The Minions": Putin's Expendable Spies | SpyCast Curator's Corner: Kevin P. Riehle on Russian Intelligence Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Emerging alongside Joseph McCarthy’s Red Scare in the 1950s was the Lavender Scare: Widespread panic and paranoia over the inclusion of gay personnel in the federal government. Their perceived dangers led to the terminations and forced resignations of thousands. Fast forward to 1988 – Tracey Ballard, who worked at the CIA, headed in to take a polygraph exam. Not sure what would happen next, she did something no one else ever had – She told her polygrapher, ‘I’m a lesbian.’ Trace became the first openly gay CIA employee, and spent the next decade of her career fighting for inclusion, acceptance, and kindness within the agency. Her story highlights the critical importance of diversity, and the beauty in recognizing the things that make us different as well as the shared values that bring us all together. From all of us at the International Spy Museum, we are proud to celebrate the LGBTQ+ community this Pride month and beyond. If you liked this episode, check out these links: Hack to the Future with Emily Crose Agents of Change: African American Professionals in the Intelligence Community Reflect The Sisterhood with Liza Mundy Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at [email protected]. This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices