Outthinkers

Bill George is one of the most influential leadership thinkers of our time. A former CEO of Medtronic and long-time Harvard Business School professor, he’s served on the boards of Goldman Sachs, ExxonMobil, Novartis, and the Mayo Clinic. His books including True North and True North: Emerging Leader Edition—have shaped how thousands of leaders approach purpose, values, and character. When performance pressure rises, it’s easy for leaders to drift from their values chasing quarterly metrics, external validation, and “style” over substance. Bill argues the opposite: sustainable performance springs from purpose, self-awareness, and a culture people believe in. We explore how to stay grounded as expectations, visibility, and success scale. You’ll learn how authentic leaders make the hard calls without becoming “nice at the expense of necessary,” choose metrics that drive meaning (not gaming), and build teams that keep you honest, learning, and aligned. In this episode we cover: •Authentic leadership: what it is and isn’t •Purpose-first strategy •The Medtronic metric: measuring outcomes people feel, not just inputs •Making tough people & portfolio decisions without losing your values •Building your leadership circle for honest feedback & growth •Short-term vs. long-term: preventing KPI gaming and hollow wins Episode Timeline 00:00 Introduction to Outthinkers Podcast 00:35 Bill George on Medtronic's Impact 01:40 Bill George's Leadership Journey 05:00 Defining Strategy and Purpose 10:32 Authentic Leadership Explained 12:45 Challenges and Examples of Leadership 16:04 Personal Growth and Leadership 20:53 Developing Self-Awareness as a Leader 22:15 Facing Crucibles: Overcoming Tough Times 23:47 Exercises for Self-Discovery 25:33 The Power of Small Groups 27:32 Long-Standing Support Systems 29:28 Assessing Leadership Values 33:01 Effective Metrics for Leadership 39:56 Engaging with Bill George Additional Resources •Bill George — Website: https://www.billgeorge.org •LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamwgeorge/ •Book: True North: Emerging Leader Edition •Book: True North •Kaihan Krippendorff: https://www.outthinker.com Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Meet Jon Levy — behavioral scientist and author of Team Intelligence: How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius and the NYT/WSJ bestseller You’re Invited. Jon has spent years studying human behavior and leadership mechanics, advising companies on how to build teams that actually perform—beyond leadership myths and buzzwords. We often hire “A-players,” roll out values, and assume great leadership traits will carry us. Then reality hits: strategy doesn’t execute itself—teams do. Jon explains why the smallest unit of performance is the team, why stacking stars backfires, and how culture and language shape what people actually do. If you’re trying to align leaders who don’t buy the data, this one’s for you. You’ll learn how to engineer collective intelligence—the practical habits, roles, and rituals that raise a team’s game, how to recruit and empower “glue players,” and how to make strategy felt when spreadsheets won’t persuade. In this episode we cover: Culture as operating system: the sayings, status cues, and rituals that drive behavior (Apple’s “surprise and delight,” LEGO’s “fireside”). Bursty communication: why teams should “work together, then work apart” to boost problem-solving. Glue players: high-EQ, team-first multipliers (and why too many stars tank performance). Make the implicit explicit: roles, skills, and “player cards” that speed decisions. Trust, not traits: honesty, competence, benevolence—and dealing with the dark tetrad at work. When data won’t convince: crafting a narrative that makes people feel the better future. Episode Timeline 00:00 Introduction 00:36 Coming Up... 01:47 Unpacking Team Intelligence with John Levy 02:47 Insights on Leadership and Team Dynamics 05:13 The Role of Culture in Organizations 13:49 The Impact of Language on Behavior 16:54 The Concept of Glue Players 18:14 The Key to Predicting Success in Basketball 19:02 Characteristics of Glue Players 21:25 The Importance of Team Dynamics 23:49 The Antwerp Diamond Heist: A Lesson in Teamwork 27:52 Making Implicit Knowledge Explicit 29:36 The Dark Side of Team Dynamics 31:29 Understanding Trust in Teams 34:06 The Role of Emotion in Strategy 35:02 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Additional Resources Jon Levy — Website: https://www.jonlevy.com Book: https://www.jonlevy.com/team-intelligence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlevytlb Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Christina Farr is an investor, startup advisor, and former health-tech journalist. She’s the author of The Storyteller’s Advantage: How Powerful Narratives Make Businesses Thrive and the creator of the Second Opinion newsletter, where she decodes healthcare and technology for leaders. Most leaders try to move markets with features, roadmaps, and metrics. But the winners often move them with narrative—stories that rally investors, customers, and teams to build the future with them. Christina unpacks how great storytellers create belief that becomes momentum. You’ll learn a simple framework to make your strategy legible and compelling, how to pick the right plot for your message, and practical ways to craft origin stories, pitch decks, and CEO communications that persuade. In this episode we cover: The SOAP framework: Surprise, Openness, Authenticity, Pathos Seven classic plots for business (from David vs. Goliath to Rebirth) and when to use each Case studies: PillPack vs. incumbents; Apple’s comeback; Microsoft’s reinvention; WeWork’s cautionary tale Fundraising and sales: decks that move capital and customers Leading in tense moments: speaking to charged issues without fracturing culture Episode Timeline: 00:00 – Highlight from today’s episode 01:05 – Introducing Christina + the power of narrative in business 03:05 – “If you really know me…” 04:20 – What is strategy? Story as prognostication 07:10 – Why story beats data alone in pitches, sales, and retention 10:55 – The SOAP framework (Surprise, Openness, Authenticity, Pathos) 18:40 – Engineering surprise; calibrating vulnerability 22:00 – Seven plots leaders can borrow (with modern brand examples) 28:45 – Case study: PillPack’s David vs. Goliath playbook 32:40 – Rebirths and tragedies: Apple, Microsoft, WeWork 36:10 – Origin stories that travel (and ones that don’t) 38:10 – CEO comms on divisive topics, without breaking culture 39:20 – Where to learn more from Christina Additional Resources: Book: The Storyteller’s Advantage — Christina Farr (Basic Venture) -https://basic-venture.com/titles/christina-farr/the-storytellers-advantage/9781541704299/ Newsletter: Second Opinion - https://secondopinion.media/ Christina Farr on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinafarr/ Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

In this special in-person conversation recorded at Adobe’s global headquarters , host Kaihan Krippendorff sits down with Malte Bernholz , Vice President of Strategy and Incubation at Adobe. Malte brings a unique lens, combining years of experience in consulting and technology leadership, to unpack what might be the most significant technological shift of our lifetime. Together, Kaihan and Malte explore: The macro forces and creative trends redefining industries in the age of AI Why this moment rivals—and perhaps surpasses—the dot-com boom in its impact How AI is both lowering the floor of creativity, making it easier for anyone to create, and raising the ceiling , expanding what’s possible for professionals How personalization at scale is transforming customer experiences And what this means for the future of brands, creativity, and human originality It’s a conversation about courage, imagination, and leadership at the edge of technological change. And for the first time, you can watch this conversation as well as listen—check out the video version on Outthinker.com or YouTube. Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Mark Crowley is a longtime financial services leader who led consistently top-performing teams over a 25-year career. He’s the author of Lead From the Heart and the newly released The Power of Employee Well-being, a frequent contributor to Fast Company , and host of the Lead From the Heart podcast. In 2013, Mark was the first to publicize Gallup’s finding that only 30% of U.S. employees were engaged—helping ignite a decade-long debate about what truly drives performance. In this conversation, we explore why feelings and emotions—not dashboards—drive behavior, how the heart–brain connection shapes decisions at work, and why belonging outperforms “boss quality” as a predictor of retention. Mark connects lived leadership to research—from Oxford’s wellbeing–productivity link to HeartMath’s work on coherence—and shows how caring (not coddling) creates the conditions for sustained results. Whether you lead a business unit, a project team, or a transformation office, this episode will reframe how you raise performance by raising wellbeing—with specific, near-term moves any leader can make this week. In this episode we cover: Why traditional engagement efforts flatline—and why wellbeing is the more powerful lever for performance The Oxford evidence: how self-reported wellbeing maps directly to productivity in real work Belonging > boss quality as a driver of retention—and how leaders actually build it Caring vs. being nice: creating psychological and emotional safety without lowering the bar A practical definition of strategy: know where you’re going, plan with rigor, pivot fast when reality disagrees Episode Timeline: 00:00 – Introduction 01:10 – Guest introduction and the case for feelings over dashboards 03:05 – “If you really know me…” and how Mark learned to lead from the heart 06:45 – Managing differently: proof from 25 years of top-performing teams 09:30 – Mark’s definition of strategy: plan hard, pivot faster 12:20 – Why wellbeing (not satisfaction) sets the stage for peak performance 15:10 – What wellbeing actually is—and why managers determine most of it 18:05 – Up to 95% of behavior is emotion-driven: implications for leaders 20:30 – Engagement stalled; the Oxford call-center study on wellbeing → productivity 25:40 – Caring vs. nice; HeartMath and the science of coherence 31:00 – Selecting and developing leaders who elevate others (not just individual stars) 36:10 – Belonging as the #1 driver of retention—and how to create it 39:20 – Where to start: know yourself, clarify values, design team-first systems 42:15 – Reward the team first (then individuals) to eliminate zero-sum competition 44:10 – How to keep learning from Mark + close Additional Resources: Website: https://markccrowley.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markccrowley Books: Lead From the Heart; The Power of Employee Wellbeing Podcast: Lead From the Heart Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Eddie Fishman is a senior research scholar at Columbia University’s Center on Global Energy Policy, adjunct professor of International & Public Affairs, and author of Choke Points: How the Global Economy Became a Weapon of War . A former U.S. State Department strategist, he served on the Secretary of State’s Policy Planning Staff and Foreign Affairs Policy Board, and led Russia/Europe sanctions policy—bringing a rare, in-the-room perspective to how economic power really works. In this conversation, we trace how “choke points”—where one nation dominates and substitutes are scarce—have turned minerals, microchips, and money flows into the quiet weapons of great-power rivalry. Eddie unpacks the geo-economic “impossible trinity” —why you can’t maximize interdependence, economic security, and geopolitical calm all at once—and what that trade-off means for leaders making bets on AI, batteries, and supply chains. Whether you’re steering strategy, procurement, or policy, this episode will change how you spot fragile dependencies, anticipate where pressure will build next, and engage policymakers before the rules harden around you. In this episode we cover: Why a true “choke point” = dominance plus low substitutability The geo-economic impossible trinity and its implications for business strategy Where the next choke points may emerge: AI compute, batteries/EVs, and the energy transition The firm’s role: don’t just adapt to policy— shape it (how to engage upstream, practically) Industrial policy realities: U.S. moves on rare earths and semis—benefits, risks, and tolerance for failure Episode Timeline: 00:00 – Cold open: rare earths and leverage 02:00 – Guest introduction and Eddie’s background 05:45 - Strategy as “winning tomorrow,” not just today 07:02 - Defining choke points (dominance + substitution) 11:20 - The “impossible trinity” explained with historical arcs 27:05 - Should firms adapt or shape policy? 30:05 - Emerging choke points: AI chips, batteries, EVs 38:05 - U.S. industrial policy (MP Materials, Intel) and what comes next Additional Resources: Book: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/726149/chokepoints-by-edward-fishman/ X (Twitter): https://x.com/edwardfishman?lang=en LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/edward-fishman Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Today we’re welcoming back our first-ever guest on the Outthinker Podcast, Scott Anthony—Senior Lecturer at Dartmouth’s Tuck School of Business and one of the world’s leading voices on innovation and transformation. Formerly a senior partner at Innosight, the consultancy founded by Clayton Christensen, Scott has spent decades helping global organizations navigate disruption, build strategic resilience, and create new engines of growth. He’s also the author of eight acclaimed books, including The First Mile , Dual Transformation , and his newest work, Epic Disruptions: 11 Innovations That Shaped Our Modern World. In this discussion, we uncover how disruption has driven human progress for centuries—long before the dawn of Silicon Valley. From the cannon fire that toppled ancient empires to the printing press that democratized knowledge, Scott shows that the forces behind disruption are anything but new. Through stories spanning from gunpowder to generative AI, he reveals how these enduring patterns continue to reshape industries, technologies, and societies today. Listeners will walk away with a richer understanding of how to spot and harness disruption rather than fear it. Scott explains how leaders can use history as a practical playbook—learning to make bold, informed decisions in fast‑changing environments. Whether you’re scaling a business or steering an enterprise through transformation, this is a conversation about seeing beyond the moment to shape what comes next. In this episode we cover: What Clayton Christensen really meant by “disruptive innovation” Why the term is so often misused—and how to tell sustaining vs disruptive innovation apart The “ghosts” that haunt incumbents: past trauma, rigid habits, and identity fears that block change What leaders can learn from the printing press, steel mini mills, and the iPhone How to use history as a lens for seeing disruption before it strikes Episode Timeline: 00:00 — Highlight from today’s episode 01:10 — Introducing Scott Anthony and today’s topic 04:00 — From consulting to academia: finding no “safe spaces” in the era of AI 09:00 — Defining strategy: “a set of choices to achieve a designed aim” 10:00 — Setting the record straight on Clayton Christensen’s theory 16:30 — Bethlehem Steel, emotional ghosts, and leadership through disruption 21:00 — From gunpowder to AI: how patterns keep repeating 25:00 — The printing press and the unintended consequences of innovation 30:00 — The hero’s journey of innovation—from Julia Child to Steve Jobs 37:00 — Spotting modern disruptors: AI, robotics, and additive manufacturing 41:00 — Where to learn more from Scott Anthony Additional Resources: Book Website: https://www.epicdisruptions.com Scott Anthony’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottdanthony/ Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Adam Brotman is the former Chief Digital Officer of Starbucks and Co-CEO of J.Crew, and co‑author of the e‑book AI‑First: The Playbook for a Future‑Proof Business and Brand. At Starbucks, he helped create one of the most admired digital customer experiences in the world and was named Chief Digital Officer of the Year. Today, as co‑founder of Forum3, Adam helps executives navigate the next era of business transformation—one where AI is no longer optional, but foundational. Over the past two years, Adam has interviewed some of the most influential voices shaping artificial intelligence—Bill Gates, Sam Altman, Reid Hoffman, and Ethan Mollick, among others. Through those conversations, he’s uncovered what separates companies that simply experiment with AI from those that truly transform. In this episode, we unpack what it really means to become an AI‑first leader—someone who doesn’t need to code or build models, but who develops the instinct and conviction to guide their teams into this new frontier. In this episode we cover: What it means to be an AI‑first CEO and why it starts with an authentic “aha moment.” Bill Gates’ perspective on AI as a tool for qualitative uplift, not just productivity. The idea of the “middle era” of AI—why it feels messy, and how visionary leaders navigate it. Lessons from Starbucks’ shift from digital‑first to AI‑first thinking. Why the real ROI of AI lies in better decisions, faster, across every function. Episode Timeline: 00:00 — Highlight from today’s episode 01:15 — Introducing Adam + today’s topic 02:30 — The AI‑first mindset: where transformation really begins 06:00 — Bill Gates on why AI is bigger than any past tech shift 10:00 — Quantitative vs. qualitative productivity 12:00 — Inside “the middle era” of AI 16:00 — Defining the AI‑first company and leader 25:00 — Beyond ROI: reframing AI’s value 28:00 — Research insights: why AI improves decision quality 31:00 — From skepticism to the CEO’s “aha” moment 33:00 — What’s next after the middle era 38:00 — Closing reflections + how to keep learning from Adam Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adambrotman Book & Company: https://www.forum3.com/ai-first-book Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Our guest today is Julia Austin—former senior leader at Akamai, VMware, and DigitalOcean, with decades of experience helping organizations make the leap from startup to scale. She’s also studied and guided countless founders as a professor at Harvard Business School. Julia now distills those lessons in her new book, After the Idea: What It Really Takes to Create and Scale a Startup . In this conversation you’ll discover what separates ventures that thrive from those that stall. Every company begins with a spark, but too often innovators fall in love with ideas, overbuild too soon, or underestimate the hard realities of scaling and culture. Julia draws from experience spanning tech giants and countless startups to reveal how leaders can move from inspiration to momentum—and sustain innovation even as complexity grows. You’ll learn practical frameworks and stories for transforming early insights into long-term impact. Whether you’re a founder, strategist, or innovator inside an established business, this conversation offers tools for approaching discovery, scaling, and culture design. In this episode we cover: Four types of scrappy experiments every innovator should run: ethnographic, “be the bot,” Wizard of Oz, and low fidelity prototypes How to know if there’s really a there there in your market Balancing beachheads and total addressable markets while keeping unit economics in check Building competitive advantages through team, domain expertise, and partnerships How to design org structures and cultures that reward experimentation and embrace productive failure Episode Timeline: 00:00 — Highlight from today’s episode 01:18 — Introducing Julia Austin and today’s topic 04:45 — “If you really know me…” Julia’s art background 06:30 — Julia’s definition of strategy as a “living, breathing map” 09:15 — Lessons from Akamai and VMware on scaling from startup to global enterprise 14:50 — The importance of discovery: why slowing down helps you go faster 21:05 — Four types of experiments: ethnographic, be the bot, Wizard of Oz, low fidelity 33:40 — Testing markets: TAM, beachheads, and unit economics 42:20 — Building competitive advantage beyond the idea 49:15 — Designing cultures that keep innovation alive at scale 55:45 — Why celebrating failure fuels long-term breakthroughs 01:02:10 — Julia’s book After the Idea and how to connect with her Additional Resources: Book Website: https://www.aftertheideabook.com/ Julia Austin's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliaaustin Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Martin Reeves is Chairman of the BCG Henderson Institute and author of The Imagination Machine and his newest book, Like: The Button That Changed the World . A prolific strategist and researcher, Martin is known for uncovering practical lessons from unexpected places and helping leaders rethink innovation for the real world. In this conversation, we trace the surprising story of the “like” button—how a few lines of JavaScript, cultural quirks, and serendipitous accidents reshaped business models, advertising, and even human behavior. Martin reveals why most groundbreaking ideas don’t emerge from lone geniuses, but from messy communities, chance encounters, and recombinations of old ideas into something new. Whether you’re leading innovation at scale or just curious about the unintended consequences of technology, this episode will change how you think about creativity, feedback, and the ripple effects of small decisions. In this episode we cover: Why the “like” button is the ultimate case study in serendipitous innovation How social signals scale beyond social media into CX, commerce, and B2B services The role of culture, language, and naming in shaping adoption and meaning Why second-order effects of innovation often matter more than first-order ones A practical lens for spotting and leveraging serendipity inside organizations Episode Timeline: 00:00 – Introduction 02:00 – Guest Introduction 03:45 – Toaster Projects and Innovation 06:13 - Origins of the Like Button 08:25 - Cultural History of the Thumbs Up Gesture 14:31 - Multiple Inventors and Facebook's Role 34:27 - Inside the Code: How Likes Work 36:11 - Future Implications of Like Technology Additional Resources: Book Website: LikeBook.org Martin’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-reeves Book: Like: The Button That Changed the World Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Kurt Miscinski is the co-founder, CEO, and President of Cerity Partners, one of the fastest-growing firms in the wealth management space. Today, Cerity manages over $130 billion in client assets—but it started with a different vision: to create the first truly global, enduring professional services firm in wealth, drawing inspiration from firms like McKinsey and Deloitte, but applying it in a field that historically hasn’t operated that way. In this conversation, Kurt shares how that vision came to life—not through consolidation, but through a partnership ethos and a language shift that reframed everything from equity to culture. This is a story of architecture: how to build a firm that scales without losing its soul, and how to align incentives, ownership, and strategy to fuel long-term value. In this episode, we discuss: How Kurt went from being a CPA and Deutsche Bank executive to founder of a firm redefining wealth advisory Why Cerity’s operating model borrows more from McKinsey than Morgan Stanley—and how that unlocks scale The strategic philosophy behind reinvesting 100% of profits and how it shaped the firm’s culture of ownership How they use mergers to create a better firm, not just a bigger one—and why that distinction matters The role of language in shaping culture, from avoiding the word “employee” to framing every merger as a partnership Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 00:55 —Introducing Kurt + the topic of today’s episode 02:42 —If you really know me, you know that... 05:30— What's your definition of strategy? 06:19 —Creating Cerity—the founding story 08:57 —Deutsche Bank and McKinsey as inspirations for a services-based business model 16:33 —How has Cerity created a culture of partnership within the firm? 26:34 —What is Cerity's model for capital allocation? 30:21 —Where does the strategy office sit within the organization? 33:33 —What are some of the principles that form your competitive differentiators? 37:03 —How do you balance and maintain the coordination of the various services offered, as your clients evolve and grow? 41:03 —What is your process for reevaluating and expanding your client services? 45:08 —Closing ______________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurtmiscinski Cerity website: https://ceritypartners.com/ Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

This special episode of Outthinkers was recorded in front of a live audience in NYC and made possible by our friends at LHH , a global leader in HR advisory and talent solutions, trusted by executives around the world to navigate change and lead with confidence. With deep expertise in executive search, leadership development, workforce transformation, and career transition, LHH empowers organizations and their leaders to thrive in an ever-evolving business landscape. Our guest is none other than Oscar Munoz —former CEO and Chairman of United Airlines, who guided the airline through one of the most significant turnarounds in corporate history. He’s also the author of the acclaimed memoir Turnaround Time , which offers a behind-the-scenes look at the human side of executive leadership. In this candid conversation, Oscar shares deeply personal lessons on leading through crisis, building trust from the ground up, and the enduring power of authenticity. Whether you're leading your organization through change or navigating a career transition, this conversation offers wisdom and inspiration for every step of the journey. Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Ryan Hamilton is an associate professor of marketing at Emory University's Goizueta Business School and co-author of The Growth Dilemma: Managing Your Brand When Different Customers Want Different Things . He is also co-host of the podcast The Intuitive Customer, and author of a book by the same name. He has consulted on branding with companies like Walmart, FedEx, Home Depot, Caterpillar, ConAgra, Cigna, Visa, and Ipsos, among others. To start a successful brand, you usually need to focus in on a specific, often niche, customer. But to grow the brand, you need to expand your customer base. A few brands have done this well (e.g., Starbucks or Apple) which have this loyal passionate base of fans that stick with them as the brands become ubiquitous. But, more often, brands fail to scale because the new customer they need in order to scale are too different from those core customers. They have different values or needs or beliefs. In this episode, we dive into this dilemma, discussing how to predict, preempt, and manage the conflicts that will arise between a brand’s initial customers and the more varied customer segments it must attract in order to scale. In this episode we cover: This concept of “CSRM”—customer segment relationship management” Examples of companies who have managed the growth dilemma well and those that have not—and what insights we can draw A practical framework outlining the four types of customer relationship scenarios you may be facing, and what strategies to deploy for each one How brands must be intentional about the type of value they offer Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:14 —Introducing Ryan + the topic of today’s episode 03:44 —If you really know me, you know that... 05:12— What's your definition of strategy? 05:52 —The basis for Ryan's second book, The Growth Dilemma 08:34 —Breaking down an "identity of culture," within a brand 11:07 —Have brands moved from functional to identity-based culture? 15:30 —The concept of CSRM: Customer Segment Relationships Management (and the 2 x 2 matrix) 25:25 —Breaking down the different types of customer segment conflicts 38:07 —How do you know when you need to "fire" a customer segment? 41:19 —How do the principles talked about in this episode apply to the employee segments? 43:30 —How does the age of hyper-customization affect customer relationship management? 46:02 —How can people continue learning from you?______________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-hamilton-49b3321/ Book website: https://www.growthdilemmabook.com/ Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Gina O’Connor is a professor at Babson College, where she teaches on the topics of Corporate Entrepreneurship and Breakthrough Innovation in large mature companies. Previously, she had a long career at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Gina has co-authored three award-winning books on Breakthrough Innovation and published numerous papers in leading journals including Sloan Management Review, Harvard Business Review, RTM and Journal of Product Innovation Management, among others. Her mission is to help large established companies learn how to renew themselves through organic growth via game-changing, strategic innovation. She is a firm believer that to be successful, organizations must develop an innovation function, complete with its own people, processes, metrics and culture that operates within the company to translate emerging science, technology and business models into new platforms of growth that will fuel the company’s future health in spite of itself. In this discussion, we fashion our conversation by following her fascinating journey through three distinct phases of studies over years of research—the foundation of her books—that evolved as her research revealed new findings. Our conversation covers more than we can summarize in this short introduction, but among these insights we discuss: What her team’s research discovered are the constraints to innovation—and they’re more often beyond just technical, contrary to what many think The three distinct competencies of innovation—discovery, incubation, and scaling—that businesses must develop, each with different people, processes, and metrics The concept of “domains of innovation intent,”—untapped new markets in which a company can explore and potentially unlock a wide portfolio of opportunities The key learnings leaders should take away from her team’s extensive studies to tackle an often-overlooked component of innovation: talent management Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:14 —Introducing Gina + the topic of today’s episode 03:36 —A quick summation of Gina's three books—and the research phases within each one 10:59 —The second phase of research and book: capabilities 18:10 —A case study that led to discovering "domains of innovation intent" 20:26 —The third phase of research and book: talent management 24:07 —Flipping failures into a portfolio of opportunities 27:10 —Ecosystems as a byproduct of innovation 32:27 —How are the concepts of an agile workforce and upskilling interrelated? 36:25 —What does a leader need to think about to successfully lead these changes? 40:15 —How can people continue learning from you? ______________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gina-o-connor-047b862/ Link to books Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Robert E. Siegel is a lecturer in Management at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he has taught various courses ranging from Systems Leadership to Financial Management for Entrepreneurs to The Industrialist’s Dilemma to Corporations, Finance and Governance in the Global Economy. He is also a Venture Partner at Piva Capital and a General Partner at XSeed Capital, and sits on multiple Boards of Directors and has led investments in Zooz, Cirrosecure, and Lex Machina, among others. His multi-lens background and approach have afforded Robert a deep, intricate understanding into leadership in our constantly in flux world today, and how it requires an ever-more nuanced approach. In this discussion, we dive into key insights from his most recent 2025 book, The Systems Leader: Mastering the Cross Pressures that Make or Break Today’s Companies, a perfect complement to his first book, The Brains and Brawn Company. We discuss the constant web of dualities that the modern systems leader confronts on an ongoing basis, as well as: How while our business frameworks have long been trending towards change-driven frameworks with terms like “ambidextrous organization” and “exploitation vs. exploration,” world parameters have grown increasingly complex, requiring a different set of leadership skills The key characteristics of a systems leader, including the 5 cross-pressures that these leaders must learn to balance to be effective. The four abilities that leaders must develop, including developing a product manager mindset—the ability to live at the intersection of customer needs, market demands, and the inner workings of your company Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:30 —Introducing Robert + the topic of today’s episode 05:32 —If you really know me, you know that... 07:48 —What is your definition of strategy? 08:44 —An overview of Robert's first book, The Brains and Brawn Company 15:30 —What are some key questions in your toolkit to become better at self-diagnostics 17:50 —Can you explain your quote: "leadership is ability to restrain in response to a certain stimulus"? 21:30 —Can you define a systems leader for us? 23:42 —What can we learn from the product manager's mindset? 25:35 —Can you give us an overview of the 5 cross-pressures leaders face? 29:28 —How is the landscape of investors changing under these pressures? 32:25 —The effect of AI on the workforce, and the role of leaders 37:45 —What is your advice to someone looking to shape strategy in light of these cross-pressures? 40:39 —How can people continue learning from you? ______________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertesiegel/ Link to website: https://www.robertesiegel.com/the-systems-leader Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

In this episode, we are joined by Brendan Rosseau and Matthew Weinzierl co-authors of Space to Grow: Unlocking the Final Economic Frontier . This episode is a journey, metaphorically speaking, into the beyond: outer space itself. Matthew is a Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School, and the Senior Associate Dean and Chair of the MBA program, where his award-winning research and teaching focus on economic policy and the business of space. He is the founder of the Economics of Space project at HBS and serves as an adviser on space to government agencies, companies, and investors. Brendan is a recognized leader in the space industry. He works in strategy at Blue Origin (the space company wholly owned by Jeff Bezos). He previously served as a teaching fellow and research associate at Harvard Business School and as a consultant to the U.S. Space Force. He is dedicated to using space technologies to bring about a more prosperous, peaceful, equitable and exciting future. In this episode, we explore the boundaries, and intersection, of fundamental laws of economics within the context of the rapidly developing space industry or market. We also glean insights on how other markets have and will evolve: the automobile industry, ecommerce, precision farming and potentially the economies around AI or blockchain. If we understand these underlying economic forces, we can more accurately anticipate when and how such new markets will emerge and, in the case of space, it may be coming much sooner than most of us outside of the space industry think. In this episode, we discuss: How the space industry and space technology have the potential to—and will—disrupt many business industries as we know them today The fascinating evolution of NASA as a government-funded R&D entity to a private sector ‘market creator’ acting as a “customer among many customers” so they can pave the way for space innovation The fundamental economic laws that govern how the space industry will evolve—and how markets here on earth will evolve as well The near-term financial opportunities you may not be thinking of that are providing a kind of economic bridge from private sector actors (who need near-term profit) and long-term players (like the government or large corporations who have the funding to pursue the opportunities offered by the moon and Mars) How the rapid formation of a space industry will directly impact companies in nearly every sector, even those with no obvious connection to space Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:28 —Introducing Matthew and Brendan + the topic of today’s episode 05:37 —If you really know me, you know that... 07:03 —What is your definition of strategy? 09:14 —What are near-term opportunities the space industry will open? 12:15 —Some use cases of revenue opportunities from space 17:39 —Introducing the Evergreen '7 Ps' 19:40 —How has the role of NASA changed over time? 29:26 —What are things that need to be in place to realize the market of space? 32:14 —The governing laws of space 37:32 —How will competition of the space markets unfold? 40:17 —What movies or books "get it right" r Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Dave Whorton is a tech investor and founder who spent 20 years of his career at the highest levels of Silicon Valley venture capital and tech startups. At the preeminent tech venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins, he worked directly with John Doerr for several years. He cofounded four companies, including drugstore.com and Good Technology. This episode is longer than our usual shorter format—and with good reason. It's about companies that last longer. We dive deep into the world of evergreen businesses—those built to adapt and grow profitably for 100 years and more. Think of these as the direct juxtaposition to venture capital-funded enterprises—where those are built with the sole intention of selling, going public or shutting down if not performing, evergreen businesses are built to endure. In 2013, Dave founded Tugboat Institute to connect, support, and inspire purpose-driven leaders of these businesses, and this upcoming May 2025, Dave, with Bo Burlingham, releases Another Way: Building Companies that Last...and Last...and Last. In this episode, we uncover some of the most profound insights from his book, so many of which fly in the face of current, common, dogmas around innovation and entrepreneurship, including: Why the companies VCs most often tout today as exemplars of greatness (Google, Microsoft) took very little VC funding—and why you should probably avoid VC investors as well The fact that the size of venture capital market has exploded multifold since 1999 and what that means for nature of how businesses are built and operate today The “Evergreen 7Ps” that characterize these companies, and specific case studies and examples of companies that live these values. Two of my favorites: They pace their growth—and avoid hyperscaling They pursue pragmatic innovation, rather than radical breakthrough innovation __________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:02 —Introducing Dave + the topic of today’s episode 03:19 —If you really know me, you know that... 06:23 —What is your definition of strategy? 09:00 —Explaining the evolution of venture capital in the past 50 years 12:02 —The pitfalls of taking venture capital 17:39 —Introducing the Evergreen '7 Ps' 24:12 —How to know if a business' pace of growth is healthy 26:50 —People as a critical part of your strategy 33:58 —Pragmatic innovation in evergreen businesses 38:53 —What public companies could adopt from the 7 Ps to behave more like evergreen businesses 45:00 —How can people can keep learning from you? ______________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davewhorton/ Link to book: https://www.tugboatinstitute.com/anotherway/ The Tugboat Institute: https://www.tugboatinstitute.com/ Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Cindy Anderson is the Chief Marketing Officer/Global Lead for Engagement & Eminence at the IBM Institute for Business Value (IBV). Cindy has co-authored research reports, published numerous articles, and delivered presentations on thought leadership, diversity, strategy implementation, project management, and technology to global audiences. She is a founding board member of the Global Thought Leadership Institute at APQC, a new association that advances the practice of thought leadership, and as you heard in the highlight clip, she is passionate about helping organizations quantify the tangible benefits and critical role of thought leadership. In this episode we dive into her just-published book The ROI of Thought Leadership: Calculating the Value that Sets Organizations Apart, which she co-authored with Anthony Marshall. As you know, almost every guest we have on this podcast is a thought-leader in some form and in this episode we get to actually explore the topic of thought-leadership itself. In this episode we discuss the role of thought leadership, and its interrelation to an organization's various branches through highlights from her book The ROI of Thought Leadership. In this episode, Cindy shares: How thought leadership is in fact, quantifiable, and what her organization’s research reveals are the top metrics that indicate the value delivered How organizations can leverage thought leadership to grow their brand’s authority and credibility—and what to avoid in damaging it The types of content you can deliver in thought leadership, with pointed markers of what makes good content (as well as what formats are in or out among content consumers) The role of GenAI within thought leadership—and why it cannot (and to a degree must not) be taken as thought leadership itself __________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:14 —Introducing Cindy + the topic of today’s episode 03:55 —If you really know me, you know that... 06:05 —What is your definition of strategy? 07:20 —Quantifying thought leadership 11:30 —Three core metrics for evaluating thought leadership 13:40 —Thought leadership’s role in reaching ecosystems and partners 15:40 —Placement of thought leadership in organizations 19:01 —Key aspects of good content 21:18 —Independence and trust as critical success levers 24:05 —The enduring value of PowerPoint, books, and print for executives 26:55 —The role of AI in thought leadership 33:05 —Content portfolio for thought leadership 36:45 —Individual vs. organizational thought leadership 39:35 —Key takeaway on thought leadership’s value ______________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/clwanderson48 Link to book: Thought Leadership Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Faisal Hoque is recognized as one of the world’s leading management thinkers and technologists. He is an award-winning entrepreneur and innovator, and a #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling author with close to thirty years of cross-industry success. Faisal is the founder of SHADOKA, NextChapter, along with a host of other companies, and serves as a transformation and innovation partner for CACI, an $8 billion company focused on U.S. national security. Along with his extensive successful career in technology and innovation, and with ten previous bestselling books under his belt, his newest book, Transcend: Unlocking Humanity in the Age of AI , dives into the philosophical and far-reaching implications of the evolution of AI alongside humanity. In this episode, we discuss: The metaphorical evolution of AI from being another technological tool to becoming a strategic partner—working alongside humankind as an extension to it Faisal’s complementary OPEN and CARE frameworks, which work in tandem to provide clear guidelines for how to both adopt and harness AI The pitfalls to watch out for, and risks we may encounter as AI becomes even more integrated into society than it is today—as well as how to mitigate these and approach the future with proper guardrails in place _______________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:21 —Introducing Faisal + the topic of today’s episode 04:03 —If you really know me, you know that... 05:36 —What is your definition of strategy? 06:37 —Purpose as an authentic calling creating value 08:15 —Creating vs. discovering purpose 09:37 —The myth of top-down strategy 11:32 —On the book ' Transcend ' 15:26 —Evolving metaphors for AI 16:50 —Humanity's reaction to AI 20:04 —The OPEN/CARE framework 26:08 —Creating a human future 28:35 —How can people follow you and continue learning from you?__________________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: Personal website: faisalhoque.com LinkedIn: faisalhoque X: faisal_hoque Link to book: Transcend: Unlocking Humanity in the Age of AI Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

JoAnn Garbin is a sustainability and technology innovator with a 25-year track record of leading teams “from nothing to something to scale,” creating numerous innovative products and profitable businesses. Her career predates the concept of climate change, and her long career in sustainability combined with her tenure at Microsoft as Director of Innovation in Microsoft’s cloud business, have given her ample insight, into how innovation can and should be a repeatable scalable process. In this episode, we discuss highlights from The Insider’s Guide to Innovation at Microsoft , a book co-written between Joann and Dean Carignan, who among his long and rich career has spent 20 years at Microsoft, guiding new businesses—including the early internet division, Xbox, and multiple AI efforts—through the critical growth phases to their first billion dollars in revenue. More than just insights and case studies into how Microsoft has woven innovation into the fabric of their ecosystem, Joann shares with us a proven framework to innovation. In this podcast, we discuss: How innovation cycles mirror nature’s adaptative processes—constantly regenerating from the ashes, much like companies must continually innovate to curtail disruption A breakdown of the four innovation patterns that each provide specific tools and strategies for effective innovation How innovation is—contrary to common belief—beyond technology, able to happen through business models, customer experience, and non-tech-oriented areas Some fascinating insider examples of how Microsoft learned critical lessons through successes and failures in various products lines—like the Xbox, Bing, and more _______________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:28 —Introducing JoAnn+ the topic of today’s episode 03:35 —If you really know me, you know that... 05:12 —What is your definition of strategy? 07:01 —Why the book isn’t just about Microsoft 09:10 —The four patterns of innovation 10:31 —JoAnn's background in sustainability 13:01 —The meaning of regenerative sustainability? 13:50 —Is having a bold goal necessary for innovation 16:13 —Pattern I: Innovating every day means 17:52 —How to innovate every day in practice 20:35 —Pattern II: Innovating over the years 23:55 —Pattern III: Innovating with everyone 26:54 —An example of innovating with everyone 29:05 —Enabling boundary crossers to connect 32:04 —Pattern IV: Innovating beyond technology 33:38 —Going against conventional wisdom 36:22 —Defining BXT (business experience technology) 37:50 —How can people follow you and continue learning from you?__________________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: Personal website: www.joanngarbin.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/joanngarbin Link to book: The Insider’s Guide to Innovation at Microsoft Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Peter Compo is the author of The Emergent Approach to Strategy: Adaptive Design & Execution. Unlike many strategists from universities and consulting firms, Compo builds his groundbreaking work first as a musician and a scientist (he holds a doctorate in Chemical Engineering), and then gained experience in the “corporate trenches” at DuPont. Hired as a research scientist, he held leadership positions in product, marketing, supply chain, and business management where he served as the Director of DuPont Ventures, focusing on new business ventures, and later as the Director of Corporate Integrated Business Planning, where he was responsible for overseeing the company's strategic planning processes. His varied background and passions inspired his unique perspective that business—particularly business strategy—often mirrors science and music, inspiring him to write The Emergent Approach. Peter’s mission is to create a new level of clarity on strategy by debunking the idea that strategy is cascading and top-down. Instead, his concept of “emergent” strategy proposes that strategic planning is agile, constantly transforming as new information and situations present themselves. In this podcast, we discuss: How strategy, similarly to evolution and scientific breakthroughs, isn’t just selecting what works, but rather a series of discarding what doesn’t work How execution isn't just about following a list and getting good results — but rather adhering to a strategy until new information proves the hypothesis or framework is wrong How leaders can help facilitate and guide strategic direction across teams and functions without putting too many constraints that hinder performance A preview of techniques and tools from his book that leaders can apply to jumpstart the emergent approach in defining your strategy _______________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:23 —Introducing Peter + the topic of today’s episode 04:30 —If you really know me, you know that... 06:20 —What is your definition of strategy? 07:44 —Can two organizations with the same goals have different strategies? 08:51 —The meaning of "Emergent" 09:40 —How did your background in music and science lead you to strategy? 13:22 —Peter's musical background 14:25 —Strategy mirroring music: structure precedes improvisation 17:24 —Strategy is more than just goals and execution 18:26 —Trade-offs between departments require strategic guidance 23:05 —Strategy helps resolve conflicts between business functions 27:22 —Lessons from sports: the role of strategy in team coordination 31:32 —Strategic adaptation and innovation 33:37 —Entrepreneurs and scientists share an obsession with solving bottlenecks 35:34 —Strategy should focus on internalization 38:24 —Five disqualifiers to test if you really have a strategy 42:35 —How can people follow you and continue learning from you?__________________________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: Personal website: https://emergentapproach.com/ LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/petercompo/ Link to bo ok: Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez is author of Powered by Projects, Leading Organizations in the Transformation Age, the Harvard Business Review Project Management Handbook , the featured HBR article The Project Economy Has Arrived , as well as five other books. Antonio coined the concept "the Project Economy," on which his book is based. His research and global impact have been recognized and included in the top 50 most influential management thought leaders by Thinkers50. He is the fellow and Former Chairman of the Project Management Institute, currently VP of the APM Association, he is the creator of the Brightline Initiative , founder of Projects&Co , and co-founder of the Strategy Implementation Institute . Antonio is a prominent advocate of the idea that our business model paradigms are quickly changing—the future of work is the Project Economy, the idea that instead of companies based on hierarchy and operations, they will be dominated by project-driven teams and environments. This premise has a profound impact on every area of a business—and strategy, management and every department of each enterprise will need to adapt accordingly. In this episode we discuss: How digitalization and the acceleration of AI has compounded this quick change from a focus on operations and repetitive work to quick execution, project-driven teams How by 2030, 70% of work will be project-based work, fundamentally changing how businesses are structured and managed. How the era of hierarchal org structure hinders growth in this new era, as successful project execution depends on co-creation and stakeholder buy-in How the role of the PMO will change from being operations-driven to more strategic, and how you can best support these roles in the transition _______________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:31 —Introducing Antonio + the topic of today’s episode 04:14 —If you really know me, you know that... 05:03 —What is your definition of strategy? 06:12 —The difference between strategy and execution 07:40 —Understanding the project economy 10:43 —The shift from operations to projects in organizations 12:18 —The cross-functional nature of projects 14:44 —The future of the PMO office 17:20 —Creating intensity in organizations 20:36 —Common mistakes leaders make in executing strategy 24:06 —Motivation for writing " Powered by projects " 26:36 —Key insights from Antonio’s leadership sessions 28:30 —How can people follow you and continue learning from you? ______________________________________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: Personal website: antonionietorodriguez.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/antonionietorodriguez Link to bo ok: Powered by Projects Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Devin DeCiantis is the co-author, with Ivan Lansberg, of the 2024 book THE ENDURING ENTERPRISE: How Family Businesses Thrive in Turbulent Condition. He is a Managing Partner at Lansberg Gersick Advisors (LGA), an advisory and educational partner trusted by many of the world’s largest family enterprises. Devin’s work and focus is on the financial, organizational, and strategic aspects of this business structure—the family enterprise. Devin brings his background in corporate strategy, economic analysis and investment banking to his work with these family businesses, family offices and family foundations. Several unique attributes family businesses set them apart from the various corporate forms, public or private, corporations or LLCs or partnership. Many of these differences build a natural immunity and competitive advantage of sorts that traditional corporations struggle to build. In this episode, we discuss some the key findings in his book, including: What enduring lessons family businesses can teach regular corporations about planning for not just quarters, but quarter-centuries The unique advantages—and weaknesses—of family businesses, whose longevity often span decades, or even centuries The unique role family businesses play in economies, especially in markets like South Asia, East Asia, and Latin America The 7 stabilizing strategies that these businesses employ effectively, as they often are built amidst emerging and frontier economies where basic infrastructure and resources are often lacking _______________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:31 —Introducing Devin + the topic of today’s episode 03:29 —If you really know me, you know that... 04:20 —What is your definition of strategy? 06:30 —Historical context of family owned businesses 08:55 —Examples of major family owned businesses 10:58 —What motivated Devin to study family businesses 13:08 —Family owned businesses in more volatile environments 16:06 —7 stabilizing strategies family owned businesses consistently deploy 17:51 —Differentiation strategy 20:31 —Resilience in family-owned enterprises 23:08 —Modularity as core driver of growth and stability 26:33 —How family owned businesses benefit from modularity 29:26 —How non-family-owned organizations can leverage modularity 31:24 —Strategic redundancy in family owned businesses 33:44 —How can people follow you and continue learning from you? _______________________________________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devindeciantis Link to book: THE ENDURING ENTERPRISE Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Sandra Matz is the David W. Zalaznick Associate Professor of Business at Columbia Business School, in New York, where she also serves as the Director of the Center for Advanced Technology and Human Performance. As a computational social scientist with a background in psychology and computer science, Sandra studies human behavior and preferences using a combination of big data analytics and traditional experimental methods. Her research, and the topic of this podcast, uncovers the hidden relationships between our digital lives and our psychology with the goal of helping businesses and individuals make better and more ethical decisions. We dive into some fascinating insights from her January 2025 book, MINDMASTERS: The Data-Driven Science of Predicting and Changing Human Behavior , exploring the concept she coined of “psychological targeting,” a discipline that reveals how our digital footprints expose intimate aspects of our psychology and can be used to shape decisions—from what we buy to how we vote. In this podcast, we delve into this topic, discussing: How digital technologies and AI are giving us unprecedented abilities to understand and target specific people in specific states The profound implications, for better or worse, of this capability Some exciting—and concerning—examples of what this might look like, from diagnosing mental health to crafting highly-personalized automated marketing campaigns How this hyper-personalization and new AI has the potential to influence, change and even control our behaviors What companies can learn from Apple’s “Evil Steve” test in designing products and experiences to safeguard future ethical misuse of data A glimpse into what could be a solution to the ethical dilemma of the capabilities Sandra studies: federated learning—a new form of data modeling that protects the individual’s data while delivering high-quality insights _______________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:26 —Introducing Sandra+ the topic of today’s episode 03:48 —If you really know me, you know that... 04:26 —What is your definition of strategy? 05:10 —The two steps of psychological targeting 06:05 —What has changed in how psychological targeting is implemented? 08:41 —How can we differentiate extroverts from introverts? 10:09 —The manners in which psychological targeting can be intrusive 10:55 —Replicating old-school communication online 12:30 —Dynamic personality states 15:52 —What are 'good' applications of psychological targeting? 18:19 —How organizations can ensure they use psychological targeting ethically 20:40 —Safe ways to collect data without compromising individual privacy 23:05 —Can psychological targeting influence internal company behavior? 25:42 —How companies can align themselves with diverse individual identities 26:48 —What skills and capabilities should organizations develop to adapt to AI-driven personalization? 26:26 —How can people follow you and continue learning from you? _______________________________________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: Personal website: sandramatz.com Link to book: MINDMASTERS Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast

Ethan Mollick, is the Ralph J. Roberts Distinguished Faculty Scholar and Associate Professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, where he studies the effects of artificial intelligence on work, entrepreneurship, and education. His academic research has been published in leading journals, and his work on AI is widely applied, leading him to be named one of TIME Magazine ’s Most Influential People in Artificial Intelligence. Ethan also writes to a wider audience about AI, including in his book, Co-Intelligence , a New York Times bestseller. In addition to his research and teaching, Ethan is the Co-Director of the Generative AI Labs at Wharton, which build prototypes and conduct research to discover how AI can help humans thrive while mitigating risks. Prior to his time in academia, Ethan co-founded a startup company, and he advises numerous organizations. He received his PhD and MBA from MIT’s Sloan School of Management and his bachelor’s degree from Harvard University. In this episode, we discuss: What people get wrong when people think about how AI will shape the workforce. What he calls the 'Centaur versus Cyborg' approach—the misconception that work must be divided between humans and AI, rather than completed in unison. What preliminary studies, in the past few years between organizations like BCG, Harvard, and MIT, have to tell us about how AI powers human productivity and work itself. What history teaches us about adopting new technologies like AI to maintain a competitive edge. _______________________________________________________________________________ Episode Timeline: 00:00 —Highlight from today's episode 01:07 —Introducing Ethan+ the topic of today’s episode 03:04 —If you really know me, you know that... 03:24 —Ethan's background and journey into AI 04:53 —What is your definition of strategy? 06:20 —Common misconceptions about AI's impact on the workforce 07:46 —AI's capabilities compared to humans, particularly in creativity 10:03 —The best way to use AI for idea generation 10:37 —AI's role in the different stages of strategy development 13:12 —The BCG study on AI's impact on consulting work Bring Us Together 13:58 —The concept of Agentive AI 14:48 —Lessons from past general purpose technology adoptions 16:33 — The need for organizational redesign in the age of AI 19:18 —The impact of AI on profit distribution across industries 20:40 —AI's role in identifying market needs and finding solutions 22:38 —The importance of experimentation with AI 24:50 —Addressing the issue of AI's unexplainable solutions _______________________________________________________________________________________ Additional Resources: Link to book: Co-Intelligence Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/emollick Substack: @oneusefulthing X: emollick Thank you to our guest, our executive producer Zach Ness, our editor James Pearce, and the Outthinker team. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, download, and subscribe. I’m your host, Kaihan Krippendorff—thank you for listening. Follow us at outthinker.com/podcast