Dare to Lead with Brené Brown

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the return‑to‑office debate and argue that most conversations are stuck at the wrong level. Instead of asking “How many days in the office?”, they ask, “What problem are you actually trying to solve?” They explore evidence on hybrid work, weak‑tie innovation, culture and belonging, and why some leaders still cling to “butts in seats” as a proxy for performance. Along the way, they introduce a systems‑thinking “iceberg” tool for getting below the surface of policy fights to the patterns, structures, and mental models driving them. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - What’s Surprising Us About This Podcast? 1:49 - Return to Office 22:06 - Challenging Your Return to Office Mental Model 34:15 - Birth Order 40:18 - Tradeoff Between Authenticity and Editing https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/peps.12641 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worklife-with-adam-grant-the-dos-and-donts/id1346314086?i=1000565464077 https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/workplace/the-real-meaning-of-freedom-at-work-11633704877 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381373698_Hybrid_working_from_home_improves_retention_without_damaging_performance https://hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/seven-truths-about-hybrid-work-and-productivity/ https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-effects-of-remote-work-on-collaboration-among-Yang-Jaffe/bff6dabad6d264c0f34678a788e20df1b015656d https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2041386614564105 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44605966_The_Strength-of-Weak-Ties_Perspective_on_Creativity_A_Comprehensive_Examination_and_Extension https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jure/pub/papers/granovetter73ties.pdf https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1802407115 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361135288_Remote_Collaboration_Fuses_Fewer_Breakthrough_Ideas https://oms-www.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads/academic/Disrupting-Science-Upload-2022-4.pdf https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4675401 https://www.atlassian.com/blog/distributed-work/intentional-togetherness-research https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/ https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/coming-to-a-new-awareness-of-organizational-culture/ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10720537.2026.2613112?needAccess=true https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1956-04524-000 https://www.nber.org/papers/w30866 https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1506451112 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From classrooms and locker rooms to workplaces and social media, Adam and Brené trace how shame and humiliation are used to control behavior and even fuel violence. They explore what causes shame, why our self-protective responses backfire, and how we can handle it more effectively. They also unpack the messy overlap between imposter syndrome and cultural pressures toward self-doubt. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). Chapter Titles + Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:10 - The One, Two, Threes of Shame 8:52 - The New Research on Humiliation 14:04 - What Is Humiliation? 18:30 - Why Don’t People Outgrow Shame? 29:09 - How to Help People Out of Shame? 38:05 - Reconnecting Your Prefrontal Cortex Post-Shame 42:55 - How Does Shame Relate to Imposter Syndrome? 50:10 - Biggest Takeaways About Shame, Guilt, Humiliation, and Embarrassment Why Feelings of Guilt May Signal Leadership Potential - Marina Krakovsky, 2012, Insights by Stanford Business (Introducing the work of Schaumberg) Unwanted identities: A key variable in shame-anger links and gender differences in shame - Ferguson et al., Sex Roles Humiliation: Causes, correlates, and consequences - Elison & Harter, 2007, from The self‑conscious emotions: Theory and research Healing Humiliation: From Reaction to Creative Action - Hartling & Linder, 2016, Journal of Counseling & DevelopmentShame and Humiliation: From Isolation to Relational Transformation - Hartling et al., Stone Center for Developmental Services and Studies Strengthening resilience in a risky world: It’s all about relationships - Hartling, 2003, Women & Therapy Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome - Ruchika Tulshyan & Jodi-Ann Burey, 2021, Harvard Business Review How imposter syndrome can be your superpower - MIT Sloan Office Of Communications, 2025 (Introducing the work of Basima Tewfik) Unmasking the Impostor - MIT Sloan Office of Communications, 2025 (Tewfik, Debunking 4 myths) Listening to shame, Brené Brown, 2012, TED The Power of Vulnerability, Brené Brown, 2011, TED Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty – how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions 3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal 13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships? 22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair 32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders? 40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty 52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty 59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty 1:05:00 - Closing Show Notes: Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study) The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States - Albert Hirschman,1970, Book The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance Compensatory Conviction in the Face of Personal Uncertainty: Going to Extremes and Being Oneself - Mcgregor et al., 2001, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Are Needs to Manage Uncertainty and Threat Associated With Political Conservatism or Ideological Extremity? - Jost et al, 2007, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin The Causes and Consequences of a Need For Self-esteem: A Terror Management Theory - Greenberg, Pyszczynski, & Solomon, 1986, Book chapter Foolproof: Why We Fall for Misinformation and How to Build Immuninity - Sander van der Linden, 2023, Book Utterly Humbled by Mystery - Richard Rohr, 2006, NPR Morning Edition Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What happens when your confidence outruns your competence? Brené and Adam start with freestyle skiing champ Eileen Gu’s extraordinary Olympic press conference and use it to explore metacognition—how to notice your thinking, question it, and change it on purpose. They dig into the Dunning–Kruger effect, calibration, journaling, and feedback, discuss why we’re so bad at estimating timelines, and consider how “I’ve got this” energy can quietly wreck projects, relationships, and learning. From pickleball and ping pong to therapy and team meetings, this episode is about building the inner game of better thinking without losing your nerve along the way. You can find the Curiosity Shop on YouTube⁠ and Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 0:00 - Introductions 3:45 - Eileen Gu’s Metacognition 12:22 - What is Metacognition? 25:10 - What is Dunning-Kruger? 38:14 - Time Estimation and The Planning Fallacy 44:36 - Metacognition and Dunning-Kruger Final Thoughts 58:17 - Wrap up Shownotes: I hate minimalism - Hank Green, TikTok Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Book Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry - Flavell, 1979 Explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect and overcoming overconfidence with David Dunning - Adam Grant, 2024, Worklife with Adam Grant Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book Intuitive Prediction: Biases and Corrective Procedures - Kahneman & Tversky, 1979, Office of Naval Research Daniel Kahneman Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant, 2023, Re:Thinking with Adam Grant The Story Rumble Process: A Guide for Groups and Teams - Brené Brown, Dare to Lead, 2018 The learning benefits of teaching: A retrieval practice hypothesis - Koh, 2018 Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things - Adam Grant, 2023, Book Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments - Kruger & Dunning, 1999, Cornell University The Inner Game of Tennis - The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance - Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Book Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week, Brené and Adam are live at SXSW! They explore why so many people are vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. The conversation covers the conditions that breed narcissistic leadership, the roles of shame and fear, and how to survive a narcissistic boss, and what it means to lead with mission over ego. You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 0:00 - Introduction 3:14 - Why People Are Vulnerable to Narcissistic Leaders 12:21 - Shame-Based Fear 18:04 - Do We Think About Emotions Wrong? 19:21 - Undue Credit and the Narcissistic Leader 26:00 - Mission Over Ego 29:52 - How to Manage a Narcissistic Boss 39:18 - Anxiety as a Path to Narcissism 47:45 - Judging Impairs Judgement 1:02:20 - Closing Show Notes: Adam Grant, Why We Fall for Narcissistic Leaders, Starting in Grade School, NYT 2025. O'Reilly et al. 2001 When 'Me' Trumps 'We': Narcissistic Leaders and the Cultures They Create, 2021. Brené Brown, "Shame shields" in The Dare to Lead Glossary: Key Language skills, tools, and practices. (pg. 15-16) Bagozzi et al. 2003 (A study on cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame) Brené Brown, Dan Pink on The Power of Regret, Dare to Lead, 2022 We're The Millers (Trailer) 2013, Awkward Roadtrip Moments: No Ragrets George Saunders, "Failures of Kindness", Convocation Speech, 2013 Emily Grijalva et al. 2020 (A study of the impact of narcissim on NBA team performance) How Brené Brown and Lumen CEO Kate Johnson Sparked This Telecom Comeback, WSJ Leadership Institute, 2025 (11:25) Adam Grant, Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016 Watts et al, 2014 (A study of grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism in U.S. Presidents) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brené and Adam have a bracingly honest conversation about what could go wrong in their collaboration, and how to set new teams, partnerships, and friendships up for success. They discuss the science of avoiding failure and building alignment, and practical strategies for navigating differences—including their own clashing instincts around minimalism vs. maximalism and sarcasm vs. trashtalk. The episode closes with what each of them is listening to, watching, and reading right now. You can also find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 00:00 - How Brené Inadvertently Launched Adam into Podcasting 02:57 - Interpreting Sarcasm 16:08 - How to Prevent Failure 28:57 - How Could This Partnership Could Go Wrong 38:42 - Learning From Differences 52:05 - How to Align Teams 1:02:00 - Closing Questions Show Notes: Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On - The Curiosity Shop Episode 1 Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown 2016 LinkedIn How to Love Criticism - Adam Grant 2018 WorkLife with Adam Grant Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn’t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective Hypervigilance in Mary Poppins (1964) The art and science of trash talk with Rafi Kohan - Adam Grant 2024 Work Life With Adam Grant Performing a Project Premortem - Gary Klein 2007 HBR Evaluating the Effectiveness of the PreMortem Technique on Plan Confidence - Veinot, Klein, & Wiggins 2010 ISCRAM Conference The Economics of Gender Differences in Employment Outcomes in Academia - Donna Ginther 2006 National Library of Medicine Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System - Donnella Meadows 1999 The Donella Meadows Project Academy for Systems Change Narcissists: Are We Surrounded? On Science Vs: - Wendy Zukerman 2024 Science VS Podcast Human Raised: Nurturing Connection, Curiosity, & Lifelong Learning in the Age - Dana Suskind, MD 2026 Book The Killing Stones A Detective Jimmy Perez Novel - Ann Cleeves 2025 Book Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Curiosity Shop! In the inaugural episode, Brené and Adam discuss how a public disagreement about authenticity almost ended their relationship before it began. For the first time, they discuss where they went wrong, why they changed their minds about each other, and what they learned about repair and trust. They also explore what healthy authenticity looks like, and dive into the many things they may still never fully see eye to eye on – from email vs. texting to remote work to faith. Show Notes Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed The Fine Line Between Helpful and Harmful Authenticity - Adam Grant 2020 NYT Authenticity Is a Double-Edged Sword - Adam Grant 2020 WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You’re Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016 The Dangers of Being Authentic - Adam Grant LinkedIn 2016 In Tough Times, Psychological Safety Is a Requirement, Not a Luxury - Michael Blanding 2025 HBR Jecker & Landy: Liking a person as a function of doing him a favour - Jecker & Landy 1969 APA PsycNet Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn’t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective A Whole New Mind (Right-Brainers will Rule the Future) - Daniel H. Pink 2005 Book The Neuroscience of You: How Every Brain Is Different and How to Understand Yours - Chantel Prat 2022 Book Dr. Harriet Lerner on I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Dr. Harriet Lerner 2020 Unlocking Us Podcast Happy Gilmore Scene - I’m Stupid You’re Smart - Happy Gilmore 1996 Movie Shame and Guilt - June Price Tangney 2002 Book Daniel Kahneman: Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant and Daniel Kahneman 2021 Re:Thinking But yes, Blue Jays are master mimics Sponsor List Thank you to SAS and Canva! Chapters Titles + Timestamps 0:00 - Introduction 3:26 - Our First Disagreement 18:45 - Our Path Here 28:31 - Approach to Repair an Apology 51:02 - Closing Question Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant are partnering on a new weekly podcast grounded in an unflinching commitment to learning and unlearning. At a time when public discourse rewards certainty over inquiry, The Curiosity Shop will see two of the world’s most influential thought leaders make the case for slowing down, asking better questions, and embracing informed complexity over easy answers. Bringing together their left and right brain sensibilities — she’s a qualitative researcher; he’s a quantitative researcher — they will explore some of the defining questions of our time, unpack the research reshaping how we live, lead, and love, and dive deep into the ideas, evidence, and cultural moments intriguing them the most. Tune in for the first episode on Thursday, March 19! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the second part of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené shares an excerpt from the Strong Ground audiobook that walks listeners through the one topic that elicited the most questions — the Above/Below the Line practice. This is one of the most profound self-awareness tools we discovered! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part one of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené answers questions from listeners about mindset shifts, leading from where you are, and courage and boldness in uncertain times. She highlights the importance of pausing during big decisions where action is not always impact, breaks down how to be courageous when it’s not the popular choice, and emphasizes the role of curiosity and thoughtfulness when moving through uncertainty and overwhelm. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the final episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam discuss the problem with rewarding all effort as excellence. Instead, leaders should reward effort that is not leading to success or mastery with their time through coaching, mentoring, and sharing their own experiences of transformation and change. They also explore how to approach decisions based on how consequential and reversible they are and highlight the role that leaders play in setting up others for success by making sure their team has what they need. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fifth episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam break down the skillsets of empathy, empathy misses, and how empathy is trickier than walking in someone else’s shoes. They discuss the way empathy can show up as being curious and caring — irreducible prerequisites for good leadership. Brené shares a powerful sentence for leaders building an empathy skillset: “What does support from me look like right now?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fourth episode of a special “Dare to Lead” series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam explore the attack on empathy, the difference between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and what separates empathy from enmeshment. Brené shares a personal story that led to a breakthrough around how to stay aligned with empathy and perspective taking instead of over-identifying and finding yourself in enmeshment — the feeling of not knowing where you end and someone else begins. They also discuss how living in an image-heavy world can affect the way we engage with empathy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the third part of a special series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam tackle the topics of time scarcity, how a great leader doesn’t have all the right answers, but the right questions, and the difference between pocket presence and executive presence. They dig into how understanding the 5 Cs — color, context, connective tissue, cost, and consequence — of delegation and strategy operations can build the situational awareness, temporal awareness, systems theory, and critical thinking skills necessary for pocket presence. In their discussion, Adam shares his breakthrough of seeing pocket presence as a collective capability, whereas executive presence is “party of one.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part two of a special series with Adam Grant on Brené’s new book, Strong Ground, Brené and Adam discuss the far and near enemies of generosity, the tug of war of paradox, and sports as leadership theater. They explore how finding our strong ground offers tethering, connection, and stability, and also the platform for explosive movement and change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special Dare to Lead episode, Brené shares one of her favorite chapters from the Strong Ground audiobook called Lock-In and Lock-Through Power. Brené uses the metaphor of a boat lock to explore the tricky work-to-home and professional-to-personal transitions that we have to navigate with our partners, children, and friends. She digs into why, at the end of a hard day, when we finally arrive home, we stay in our cars and scroll through TikTok rather than going inside, and how an intentional "locking through" process allows us to rise or lower to a new and different rhythm as we make daily transitions. And, after visiting the Teddington Lock in London and getting a lesson from the local lock keeper, she shares why moving too fast through these transitions often results in relational capsizing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the first episode of a special series on Brené's new book, Strong Ground, Brené and Adam dig into the origins of Strong Ground, and what values clarity can mean for individuals, teams, and organizations. They take on the question of why there is so much more meaning in our lives and our work when we know who we are and what matters to us the most. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode Brené and Barrett discuss their learnings on AI and social media and some of their favorite nuggets from each of the guests in the series. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Brené and Dr. Joy discuss fighting bias in algorithms, Gender Shades - the accuracy of AI powered gender classification products, and her amazing perspective on technology as a poet, artist, and scientist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Brené and Lisa discuss how we can work to close the digital divide and ensure more people have access to technology, what it means in AI speak to have a human in the loop, and the incredible ways teachers, business owners, and regular people are using AI. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Quantitative futurist Amy Webb talks to us about the three technologies that make up the "super cycle" that we're all living through right now: artificial intelligence, wearable devices, and biotechnology, and why, despite the unnerving change, we still need to do some serious future planning. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In Part 2 of my conversation with Paul Leonardi and Tsedal Neeley, authors of The Digital Mindset: What It Really Takes to Thrive in the Age of Data, Algorithms, and AI, we talk about the importance of establishing a baseline digital literacy in our organizations and the intimate relationship between the skill sets and the mindsets we cultivate. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This two-part podcast with Paul Leonardi and Tsedal Neeley is an absolute game changer. Given how often I find myself working with leaders who are knee-high in uncertainty and vulnerability around digital transformation, I thought I had a pretty solid understanding of it. But The Digital Mindset book and this conversation turned everything upside down. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re back with Part 2 of my conversation with Mike Erwin, the founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and the co-author of Leadership Is a Relationship. In this episode, we continue to dig into how the most effective leaders prioritize relationships. They give feedback that calls attention to the behaviors they want to encourage, invest in the slow work of pulling and keeping people together, and navigate the trickiness of loyalty, a state that, if it starts to move us out of our values, can become transactional, not relational. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the first of two episodes with Mike Erwin, the founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and the co-author of Leadership Is a Relationship, a timely book that details why leaders who prioritize relationships are more effective. It’s a conversation about the seven functions of relationship-building and the importance of prioritizing our relationships as people and also as leaders. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices