Macro N Cheese

Historian and journalist Vijay Prashad talks with Steve about why Antonio Gramsci still matters. Listeners to this podcast know that we have a pretty good grasp of the monetary system. But we’re constantly working to expand our understanding of the systemic underpinnings of real power. How else will we be able to seize it? For help, we turn to Gramsci. According to Vijay, Gramsci was doing class forensics. His core puzzle was brutal and practical: why did big chunks of Italy’s working-class bail on their own unions and parties and drift into fascism? That’s the real origin story of “cultural hegemony,” “common sense,” and the whole Gramscian toolbox: figuring out how consent gets manufactured and how counterrevolution recruits. Vijay takes us through Gramsci’s political development and his imprisonment under Mussolini, where he wrote his seminal Prison Notebooks . Then they get into Gramsci’s key concepts: hegemony (borrowed from Lenin and, per Vijay, more than a “culture theory”), the necessity of a Leninist-type party as the modern Prince , and the need to build alliances to create working-class leadership over society. After taking a hard look at the left in the US, Steve and Vijay discuss the limits of electoral politics and the missing infrastructure for a serious battle of ideas. It’s a wide-ranging conversation about class power, organizing, and what it actually takes to change how people understand the world they’re living in. Vijay Prashad is the Executive Director of the Tricontinental Institute for Social Research. He is a historian, journalist, and author of forty books, including Washington Bullets: A History of the CIA, Coups, and Assassination; Red Star over the Third World; and The Darker Nations: A People’s History of the Third World. thetricontinental.org @vijayprashad on X

In today’s world, anyone serious about anti-imperialism, global development, and monetary sovereignty needs to break through the well-funded US propaganda machine and develop a fact-based, nuanced understanding of China. To this end, Steve asked Yan Liang to come back to the podcast to look at China through the MMT lens, analyzing its economic management, global role, and response to Western villainization. They discuss China’s development ethos and describe China as a state that actively uses its monetary and fiscal sovereignty to guide development towards internal goals (poverty alleviation, technological self-reliance, common prosperity) and external partnership (Win-win cooperation, Belt and Road Initiative). Illustrating the difference between state steering and the so-called “free market,” the conversation goes into China’s mobilization of real resources through strategic state guidance, like Five-Year Plans and state-owned enterprises in key sectors. Yan talks about the use of capital controls and a managed exchange rate. She details lessons from 2015 and the application of MMT principles to insulate domestic policy from volatile external forces. Without romanticizing China, Yan also walks through its real challenges. But from an MMT-aware lens, these are seen as problems of policy design and resource use (issues a sovereign, planning-oriented state can address!) rather than proof of an impending collapse. Yan Liang is Peter C and Bonnie S Kremer Chair Professor of Economics at Willamette University. She is also a Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute, a Non-Resident Senior Fellow at the Global Development Policy Center (Boston University), and a Research Scholar of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. Yan specializes in the Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), the Political Economy of China, Economic Development, and International Economics. Yan’s current research focuses on China’s development finance and industrial transformation, and China’s role in the global financial architecture. https://www.linkedin.com/in/yan-liang-1355b91a2/ @YanLian31677392 on X

Steve and his guest, Scottish political economist William Thomson, use the fight over Scotland’s independence to dissect how class power hides inside “neutral” economic rules. Will, founder of SCOTONOMICS, talks about his journey from neoclassical training to a heterodox, political-economy perspective grounded in MMT, ecological economics, and class analysis. He recently wrote a paper (with friend-of-the-podcast Dirk Ehnts) showing how the Scottish government’s plan to copy the EU’s Stability and Growth Pact and delay its own currency would lock an “independent” Scotland into permanent austerity and dependence on markets and foreign owners. Will explains that more foreign direct investment, supply-side reforms, and 3% deficit caps aren’t “responsible” policy – they are mechanisms to protect external and domestic elites at the expense of workers and communities. Steve and Will stress that MMT is just a lens without an explicit socialist or working-class political economy. The same monetary tools can be used for empire, war, and repression. They argue for an independence project built on monetary sovereignty, full employment, ecological limits, and economic resilience... not on appeasing markets and Brussels. William Thompson is a Scottish political economist and founder of SCOTONOMICS. He worked for almost a decade in the financial services sector in London. He has an MSc in the Green Economy and MEcon in the Economics of Sustainability. Based in Dunblane, Will writes regular blog posts and articles on economics in various publications including The National newspaper in Scotland and the Scottish Left Review. Support SCOTONOMICS: patreon.com/Scotonomics. @Williamgallus on X https://scotonomics.org/

“We’re at an inflection point – a civilizational crisis. Western imperial dominance is ending, and its dying spasms are only accelerating the collapse.” Aaron Good Aaron Good, author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State, is back to talk with Steve about the crisis of the US-led imperial order and the manufactured “common sense” that keeps people trapped inside a rigged system. Centuries of Western imperial dominance are unraveling, and the US responds with flailing, genocidal actions in Gaza and Ukraine. These aren't signs of strength; they're the death rattles of a corpse that doesn't know it's dead yet. “Realizing you’re not voting your way out of it might be the most terrifying ‘aha moment’ of them all.” Steve Grumbine At home the two major US parties are presented as alternatives, the ballot is a participation trophy in the “managed spectacle” of elections. Obama? Trump? Biden? Different brands, same oligarchy. Corporate media and algorithmic “alternative media” work together to keep people confused, divided, and clinging to the fantasy that if they just vote harder, donate more, and binge the right “left” YouTubers, they can reform a system designed to crush them. The empire’s to-do list (crush dissent, steal resources) remains the same. What are we to do? Maybe we can't break the system yet, but we can stop being dupes. See the Matrix. Aaron Good holds a doctorate in political science from Temple University. He is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. He is the host of American Exception podcast https://americanexception.com/podcast/ Follow Aaron’s work at americanexception.substack.com/ @Aaron_Good_ on X

Randy: “We’re supposed to believe the central bank manages inflation by using interest rates?" Steve: “It’s ridiculous.” L. Randall Wray, one of the original MMT economists, recently wrote a paper with Yeva Nersisyan entitled, No, the Fed is NOT Independent – It is a Creature of Congress . Steve invited Randy for a conversation about how the Federal Reserve is, and always has been, a "creature of Congress," and its supposed independence is a smokescreen that benefits the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. The Fed has a dual mandate of full employment and price stability, yet it consistently prioritizes the stability of Wall Street over the well-being of Main Street, bailing out banks while leaving workers to face the fallout of manufactured recessions. Randy describes how raising interest rates – the Fed’s so-called tool – works to suppress wages by slowing the economy and killing job growth. Federal Reserve transcripts explicitly state that they fear “wage inflation” but see “profit inflation” as desirable. Randy wants Congress to take control of the central bank. (Some of us don’t see Congress as independent either.) But whatever our belief in the role of the state and who it serves, the episode contains valuable information on central bank operations, how interest rate hikes discipline labor, the truth about “fighting” inflation, and the difference between monetary and fiscal policy. We need to understand the mechanics of power if we’re going to build the future we deserve. L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, and Emeritus Professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City. He is one of the developers of Modern Money Theory and his newest book on the topic is Understanding Modern Money Theory: Money and Credit in Capitalist Economies (Elgar, 2025).

** Want to take a deeper dive into this podcast? Join us on Tuesday evenings for Macro ‘n Chill, where we listen to the most recent episode together. Ask questions, share your insights, or just hang with us. 8pm ET/5pm PT. Find the registration link at realprogressives.org. And while you’re there, sign up for book club. It’s not too late – there are still two more sessions in our current series. ** Trump’s “$20B for Argentina” wasn’t aid – it was a heist. Economist Daniel Kostzer joins Steve to explain. Basically it’s just same ole same ole. Milei’s government crashed the value of Argentina’s currency and jacked up interest rates, drawing in big investors looking for fast profits. Then, under pressure from the IMF and the US, Argentina opened up its financial system, letting those hedge funds cash out in US dollars and leave the country, taking the money and leaving ordinary Argentines to deal with inflation, frozen pensions, and gutted public services. The media story about soybeans and China? Simply a cover for another bailout of the rich. Daniel describes Argentina’s inflation as a symptom of class struggle. He connects the dots between today’s crisis and a long history of U.S. financial “help” that only props up Wall Street. The conversation exposes how the global elites use debt, currency crises, and friendly politicians to extract wealth while selling it as economic stability. The episode is a deep dive into modern imperialism, media manipulation, and class politics. It’s also a reminder, as Gramsci said, to keep the pessimism of the intellect but the optimism of the will. Daniel Kostzer is Chief Economist at ITUC-CSI (International Trade Union Confederation-Confederacion Sindical Internacional). Much of his research is in labor economics, poverty reduction, and income distribution. Follow him: @dkostzer on X; https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-kostzer-884318165/

Heidi Boghosian is an attorney, author, and co-host of Law and Disorder podcast and radio show. She joins Steve to discuss how the US surveillance state is a tool of class discipline and repression. From the Federalist Society pipeline to post-9/11 “safety” theater, both parties helped build a digital police state that criminalizes poverty, protest, and anyone messing with profits. And let’s not forget the copaganda about “crime” and “illegals” to keep folks scared while manufactured austerity produces the very crises the state then punishes. Classic ruling class two-step. Silicon Valley’s tech bros are kind of like bouncers. Thiel, Apple, Google et al. snort up our data, rig information flows (algorithms, anyone?) then lobby to block regulation. The “nothing to hide” line is an ideological bait and switch. The killer is inside the house! There’s no easy fix. Heidi urges immediate digital self-defense – the OPSEC basics, privacy tools, scam awareness. Meanwhile the ruling class isn’t losing sleep over your “I voted” sticker. We should be thinking in terms of local organizing and building counter-hegemony. (Heidi references the Young Lords. Look ‘em up!) Heidi Boghosian is a New York-based attorney and activist. She's the author of "Spying on Democracy" (2013), "I Have Nothing To Hide" (2021), and "Cyber Citizens: Saving Democracy with Digital Literacy" (June 2025). Heidi is co-host of the radio show and podcast, Law and Disorder. Find her work at lawanddisorder.org and heidiboghosian.com

"The self-made man is a lie that we have taught people to keep them from complaining, to keep them from whining, to keep them from asking for better from their government, to keep them from asking for better from their employer." The two Steves – Hall and Grumbine – get together to dismantle the myth of the self-made man, exposing it as a centuries-old political weapon designed to disempower the working class. Professor Hall traces the roots of this "possessive individualism" back centuries, saying it is not a recent neoliberal invention but a deeply embedded cultural force with origins in changes in English law, specifically the spread of primogeniture (inheritance by the first-born son) in the 12th century. He goes on to explain the consequences of these historical events. The conversation reframes the American Dream as a form of mass gambling. Despite overwhelming evidence that most people fail, the system encourages a zero-sum mindset where we focus on the lottery-like winners. The Steves agree that facts alone won't break this spell. They discuss the need for a new emotionally compelling narrative that counters the right's fear-mongering. Steve Hall is Emeritus Professor of Criminology at the University of Teesside. He is a polymath who has published in the fields of criminology, sociology, anthropology, history, economic history, political theory and philosophy. He is also co-author of Violent Night (Berg 2006, with Simon Winlow), Rethinking Social Exclusion (Sage 2013, with Simon Winlow), Riots and Political Protest (Routledge 2015, with Simon Winlow, James Treadwell and Daniel Briggs), Revitalizing Criminological Theory (Routledge 2015, with Simon Winlow), The Rise of the Right (with Simon Winlow and James Treadwell) and The Death of the Left (with Simon Winlow). He is co-editor of New Directions in Criminological Theory (Routledge 2012, with Simon Winlow). In 2017 he received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the international Extreme Anthropology Research Network at the University of Vienna. @ProfHall1955 on X

Do you know what kakistocracy means? You’ll find out in this episode with guest Bill Black. Because, yeah, this is an educational podcast. A lot of us learned the term ‘elite control fraud’ from Bill in past episodes and you’ll hear more about it here. Bill is a great storyteller. His experience as a regulator trying to enforce laws against the great crooks of the world gives him a lot of material. If you haven’t already heard our first episode with him, check it out: “Exposed: A Serial Whistleblowers Story” He’s the author of The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One – one of our favorite book titles. At the start of this week’s interview, Bill explains: “...The absolute paramount form of control fraud is President of the United States of America. And they set about optimizing it as soon as they got in power. Remember all those executive orders and things that Trump would sign? “... Among their very first acts was to say, we will no longer enforce the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Now this is an act that says, no, it's not okay to bribe public officials in other countries. It's actually a crime. And Trump was saying way back in time, long before he even was talking about the presidency, how we shouldn't have a Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. That it was stupid. Of course you should be able to bribe people. It's good for business. “And if you think that's bad, the New York Bar Association took the same position. Because they were the commercial lawyers for all the firms that were bribing folks all over the world.” Bill describes a shift to the final stage of elite control fraud. Corrupt actors no longer bother hiding their crimes. They flaunt them. This serves as "free advertising" to attract more bribes and creates a price war among those seeking favors, while simultaneously intimidating opponents. Bill also talks to Steve about further manipulation of financial regulations and the intersections of elite control fraud within the cryptocurrency market. He goes through the real reasons crypto is useful to the ruling class and how these dynamics affect everyday people. William K. Black is Distinguished Scholar in Residence for Financial Regulation, University of Minnesota School of Law. He is a white-collar criminologist, a former financial regulator, former banker, and serial whistleblower. He is a co-founder of Bank Whistleblowers United (BWU). @WilliamKBlack on X

**This week’s Macro ‘n Chill gathering should be a lively one. Whenever we dive into the topic of cultural hegemony, it sparks a thoughtful discussion. Join us on Tuesday, October 14, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Click here to register This is the 349th episode of our podcast. Just sayin’. Steve’s guest is David Fields, talking about his recent article, The Cultural Syndromes of Capitalism . David explains the rise of far-right figures like Donald Trump is not a random accident but a direct outcome of the capitalist system, which creates deep-seated cultural syndrome that poison our minds and relationships, making fascism an attractive option for many when the system itself is in crisis. The three key cultural syndromes are: Gain Primacy Syndrome, designed to make us feel like failures: Capitalism constantly tells us to optimize ourselves and chase endless wealth. When we inevitably can't achieve this due to low wages and precarious jobs, it creates a deep sense of alienation and loss. Fascists then exploit this feeling, telling us to blame immigrants, people of color, or our neighbors instead of the system itself. Zero-Sum Rivalry Syndrome, pitting us against each other: The system is built on dog-eat-dog competition. This forces us into constant social comparison, potentially leading to self-hatred and mental health crises. When we feel we're losing this race, it's easy for fascist rhetoric to redirect our anger. Ownership Syndrome, making everything fake: We are taught to find meaning not in community or authenticity, but in the things we buy. This is designed to create a hollow, meaningless life. Fascism offers a false sense of genuine community and a return to a "better past" (hahaha) to fill this void. The conversation also touches on theological reflections and historical perspectives to further emphasize the pervasive cultural manipulation intrinsic to capitalism. Overall, the episode examines the ideological tools used to maintain economic subjugation. Liberals and Democrats are meant as a ‘friendly face’ of the same system, offering pittances of welfare while ensuring the exploitative oppressive structure remains intact. Link to the article discussed in this episode: https://utahvanguard.medium.com/the-cultural-syndromes-of-capitalism-e2765aa7df34 David M. Fields is an economist and author whose research is grounded in critical, realistic and genetic structuralist ontology and epistemology, focusing on the complex interactions of foreign exchange and capital flows with economic growth, fiscal and monetary policy and distribution, with particular emphasis on the concept of endogenous money. Additionally, he investigates the political economy of regional development, along with examining patterns with respect to housing, social stratification and community planning. He is currently an economist at the Utah Department of Commerce and the author of a Medium post for the Utah Vanguard. @ProfDavidFields on X

The Palestinian liberation struggle is a fundamental class and anti-colonial issue. First-time guest to the podcast, Professor Omar Zahzah, talks with Steve about the active collaboration of Silicon Valley tech giants with the US and Israeli governments to censor and suppress anti-Zionist narratives. "What these companies are doing is digitally amplifying a physical process of settler colonial dispossession." Omar goes beyond labeling digital censorship as simple political bias. He argues that Silicon Valley's actions are a direct extension of imperialist goals in Palestine: the erasure of a people, their narrative, and their history. Big Tech is not a referee – not even a biased one. It is an active combatant. Omar provides a sharp critique of how the language of safety and anti-racism is co-opted and weaponized. Online platforms use terms like "harassment" and "hate speech" to silence criticism. In their discussion, Omar and Steve apply Antonio Gramsci's theory of cultural hegemony to the digital sphere. They analyze how Big Tech platforms shape our "common sense," not just through outright censorship, but through algorithmic curation, shadow-banning, and overwhelming activists with trolls and bots, waging a "digital war of attrition" that drains energy and shifts perceptions. They also suggest the potential TikTok ban is not just a US-China trade issue but a symptom of a crisis of hegemony. Omar Zahzah is a writer, poet, organizer of Lebanese Palestinian descent, and Assistant Professor of Arab and Muslim Ethnicities and Diasporas (AMED) Studies at San Francisco State University. Omar has covered digital repression in relation to Palestine as a freelance journalist since May 2021, with work appearing in such outlets as Al Jazeera, Middle East Eye, Electronic Intifada, Mondoweiss, CounterPunch, and more. Omar holds a PhD in Comparative Literature from UCLA. His recently published book is Terms of Servitude: Zionism, Silicon Valley, and Digital Settler Colonialism in the Palestinian Liberation Struggle @dromarzahzah on X

Economic anthropologist Brett Scott, the author of Cloud Money , talks with Steve about libertarianism’s big lie. Or lies – plural. From a class perspective, libertarianism is largely an ideological tool that protects elite power by promoting a false narrative of individualism and "free" markets. It serves as a smokescreen, concealing the mechanisms of power in a class society. What worse, it’s presented as neutral. As if all citizens are on an equal playing field. Market transactions replace the natural interdependence at the core of societies. Brett and Steve look at leftwing alternatives, including the potential of mutual credit systems and alternative economies as counter-narratives to mainstream economic structures. They also discuss libertarians' obsession with commodity money (like gold), which stems directly from their flawed view of society. They see money as a neutral tool for trade between independent agents. In reality, modern money is a credit system —a network of social promises and debts that reflects power dynamics. Brett Scott is an author, journalist, and activist, who explores the intersections between money systems, finance, and digital technology. He’s the author of The Heretics Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money. His latest book is Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets. Find more of his work at https://alteredstatesof.money/ or on Substack . @Suitpossum on X

** You are invited to attend Macro ‘n Chill, our community building online gathering where we discuss the current episode of the podcast. Tuesday, September 23 at 8pm ET/5pm PT Click here to register . Our friend, MMT economist Yeva Nersisyan, joins Steve to discuss the struggle to communicate MMT's core principles in a media landscape filled with misinformation, including from those who should know better. They call some of them out by name and express disappointment when natural allies on the left reject modern monetary theory. “At this point, you cannot just be MMT curious. You have to make up your mind, do you want the ‘scarce money’ framework? Is that the way you're going to view the world? Or do you view it through the MMT framework? Because there is no other option.” Yeva and Steve agree that MMT is not a political ideology but a crucial lens for understanding that a monetarily sovereign government is the creator of currency, which means scarcity is serving another purpose – eg, supporting this economic system. They talk about government spending during Covid as a missed opportunity to educate. They criticize so-called progressive politicians (hello Bernie!) who, despite likely understanding MMT, refuse to publicly champion its principles. This leads to self-sabotage (perhaps intentionally?) when they claim to argue for progressive policies within a conservative tax-and-spend agenda. Result? Austerity. As we regularly try to stress, a correct understanding of MMT is no solution, but rather a tool in building a revolutionary class analysis. Dr. Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of Economics and Department Chair at Franklin and Marshall College and a research scholar at Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Professor Nersisyan has published more than 25 journal articles, book chapters, policy notes and policy briefs on the topics of Modern Monetary Theory, fiscal policy, the Green New Deal, and financial instability. She is the editor of the Elgar Companion to Modern Monetary Theory with L. Randall Wray, and her work has appeared in publications such as The Guardian and The Hill. Find her work at levyinstitute.org/publications/yeva-nersisyan

Our friend Daniel Conceição is back for his sixth(!) time on Macro N Cheese. He and Steve share their critique of "neutral" or academic MMT that avoids class analysis. Understanding a government's monetary capacity is meaningless without using that knowledge as a weapon for class struggle against an oppressive economic system. Daniel shares his experiences in Buenos Aires, describing a city with grand public infrastructure (a legacy of Peronism) now filled with poverty due to austerity. He dismantles the myth that President Javier Milei's austerity policies tamed inflation. Instead, he argues the temporary stabilization was due to a massive, supranational bailout from the IMF, not free-market principles. And when we’re talking about the IMF, we’re seeing a tool of economic imperialism. By creating dollar dependency in developing nations, it forces them into debt servitude and structural adjustments that fully serve global capital, never local populations. This brings us back to mainstream economists who lie outright in order to protect the class interests of banks and the oligarchy. They point to how economic rationalizations shift (e.g., after the 2008 crisis and during the pandemic) to always justify saving capital while opposing spending on the public purpose. Daniel Conceição is an associate professor at the Institute of Urban and Regional Planning and Research (IPPUR) at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), and one of the authors of the book “Modern Monetary Theory: The Key to an Economy at the Service of People”. He is also former president of the Institute of Functional Finance for Development Brasil ( https://iffdbrasil.org/) @stopthelunacy

** Tuesday evening, Bob will join our weekly online gathering where we’ll listen to the podcast together and discuss. Bring your questions for him. September 9 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/1HA3nd_5QFSFzBe_cGiHpw This is Bob Hockett’s 12th visit to Macro N Cheese. Back in 2022, in an episode discussing the collapse of the major crypto exchange platform FTX, Bob gave us a useful rule of thumb: “The irony is that in every one of these cases there is a clue in the name of the product in question that ought to warn you. If it’s called a junk bond, there’s a reason for that word “junk” being used. And if it’s called a subprime mortgage loan... there’s a reason for that “subprime” term. Similarly with cryptocurrency or crypto assets, one of the most ironical names ever conceived for this kind of product. If the word “crypto” comes into it, then that’s a pretty good tip-off that there’s something non-transparent about it, that there’s something opaque and occluded and difficult to understand.” Hmmm... today’s topic is the GENIUS Act. What meaning should we take from that name? In this episode, Bob and Steve talk about the newly-passed GENIUS Act whose stated purpose is regulation of the stablecoin industry, bringing the shadow banking industry into the light and out of the, um, shadows. The discussion looks at the flawed premise of private stablecoins and the real motives behind the push. Far from preventing instability and fraud, promotion of stablecoin aligns with a libertarian ideology (a la Hayek) that seeks to denationalize currency and privatize money. From a Modern Monetary Theory perspective, the implications are alarming. It merits a discussion of the role of the state. The GENIUS Act is a dangerous distraction. A Trojan Horse. Robert C. Hockett is the Edward Cornell Professor of Law at Cornell Law School. His principal teaching, research, and writing interests lie in the fields of organizational, financial, and monetary law and economics His forthcoming and recent books are: World Money (Yale 2026); A Republic of Producers (Yale 2025); Making Capital Democratic (Polity 2025); Spread the Fed (Palgrave 2025); The Citizens' Ledger (Palgrave 2022); Democratizing Finance (Verso 2022); Money from Nothing (Melville House 2020); Financing the Green New Deal (Palgrave 2020). @rch371 on X

In our 14th episode with Australian economist Bill Mitchell, the conversation focuses on the MMT perspective on international trade. Bill explains what is meant by the statement “imports are a benefit, and exports are a cost,” where it fits into the history of economic thought, and some of its implications. A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to explaining the crucial shift from the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate system to the modern system of floating exchange rates after 1971. Bill clarifies that in a floating regime, a currency-issuing government is not financially constrained in its domestic policy by “trade imbalances,” as it was under Bretton Woods. The episode also touches on bond vigilantes, the IMF, and the shifting status of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency. William Mitchell is Professor of Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE) at the University of Newcastle, NSW Australia. He is also the Docent Professor of Global Political Economy at the University of Helsinki, Finland, and Guest International Professor at Kyoto University, Japan. Follow Bill’s work, including his upcoming books, at https://billmitchell.org/blog/

**Be sure to subscribe to our Substack. It costs you nothing to have all our new content delivered to straight to your inbox! https://realprogressives.substack.com/ Remember Labour's stunning defeat in the 2019 UK general election? When, under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, they won the lowest number of seats since 1935? Steve’s guest, Chris Williamson, brings an insider’s view to the story. Chris is a former MP and shadow minister for UK’s Labour Party. He’s currently deputy leader of the Workers Party of Britain, and hosts a show, Palestine Declassified , that has the notable honor of being banned by YouTube. Chris describes some strategic missteps within the Labour Party under Corbyn and others. He criticizes the adoption of neoliberal policies, like the fiscal credibility rule, and Corbyn’s ambiguity on Brexit. The Zionist lobby leapt on their support for Palestine; charges of antisemitism hit their target. “Unfortunately, Jeremy gave it legs by continually apologizing. And as I said to him at the time, ‘Every apology you make and every concession you give is just feeding the beast and making it stronger. Ultimately they're going to come for you and destroy this project.’ And they did. I mean, that's what really killed the Corbyn project. It was the antisemitism thing. I mean, what finished it off. What delivered the coup-de-grace, of course, was the commitment to a second referendum on Brexit.” Chris also recounts his own experience as a victim of coordinated attacks which led to his being ousted from the Labour Party. Throughout the conversation, Steve and Chris continuously pound the MMT message, reminding us that the UK, like the US, is not constrained by lack of money! Chris Williamson is a former member of Parliament and shadow minister for the Labour Party, currently deputy leader of the Workers Party of Britain. @DerbyChrisW on X Follow Palestine Declassified https://www.presstv.ir/Section/150108

Our friend, physicist and economist Erald Kolasi, stops by the Macro N Cheese clubhouse to talk with Steve about the profound effects of AI on the energy grid, water resources, and societal infrastructure. The discussion focuses primarily on large-scale corporate AI, such as generative AI. Erald’s work bridges physics, economics, and ecology, revealing how AI’s rapid expansion is not just a technological phenomenon but a biophysical crisis – one that’s easy to overlook. Cloud is such a gentle word. Diaphanous. It sounds harmless. Lovely, even. “When you're in front of your computer and you're just typing away and you're asking these systems to do all these magical things for you, it can seem like it comes out of nowhere. But no, in reality, all of this stuff takes enormous energy.” AI’s dematerialized facade obscures its physical infrastructure. It’s a classic capitalist contradiction where "progress" accelerates ecological breakdown. Erald and Steve talk about the race to the bottom, as states and municipalities trade public health for tax revenue. Regulatory enforcement is absent. While exploiting labor and plundering nature, the costs are socialized as these companies use public water and energy grids. Elon Musk’s xAI Colossus is based in Tennessee. (Remember the TVA, that impressive example of depression-era federal works? Help yourself, Elon.) It’s not just that they use public water and energy, it’s the vast and growing amounts of these resources, as Erald explains. The conversation also touches on the AI arms race, as the US competes with China, using “national security” as an excuse to justify resource wars. From energy consumption to water depletion, from labor displacement to geopolitical tensions, this episode exposes the contradictions of AI under a system that prioritizes profit over sustainability. Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website, www.eraldkolasi.com . Subscribe to his Substack: https://substack.com/@technodynamics

**Our weekly online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill is the perfect place to discuss this week’s episode, especially since it includes terminology you might not be familiar with. Or there may be someone who needs your help understanding it. Community-buidling on Tuesday, August 12 at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register What do you know about blockchain? Surely you’ve heard our episodes with Brett Scott or the Blockchain Socialist or Rohan Grey. Now we have another one. Steve’s guest is Victor Vernissage, co-founder of the project Humanode, which aims to use blockchain to create a biometric based system. Victor, who agrees with Steve that the US is not a democracy, notes that even "decentralized" crypto systems replicate oligarchic structures, where power is tied to capital. They delve into the intricacies of Humanode's capacity and discuss how this can be a tool for building parallel systems outside traditional governmental structures. They also touch on the potential for decentralized governance and the challenges of implementation at both local and global levels. Victor talks about concepts like liquid democracy with specialized chambers to avoid tyranny of the majority. He explains Sybil attacks and sockpuppeting. The conversation offers insights into how technology can be leveraged for social and political transformation, emphasizing the role of community involvement and the importance of building new economic and social structures from the ground up. ***** Victor Vernissage is a researcher and cofounder of multiple ventures, with his latest baby being Humanode, an egalitarian decentralised ledger built on the principle of one human = one vote in contrast to capital-based blockchains predominant today. Victor loves macro, complex systems and the intersection of crypto, identity and economics, meanwhile building new social structures as code. Learn more about the project at humanode.io @tech_mingler on X

Charles Derber, a sociology professor at Boston College, talks with Steve about his book, 'Bonfire: American Sociocide, Broken Relations and the Quest for Democracy.' Steve suggests the book aligns with his own assessment that US sociocide (social disintegration) demands revolutionary change. Electoral politics are a distraction and a dead end. The conversation covers the need for a deeper understanding of a system that manufactures and perpetuates inequality. They discuss the historical continuity of fascism as the logical endpoint of capitalism. Indeed, Trump’s presidency has exposed the latent fascist character of the US state, stripping away liberal democratic pretenses. Austerity measures and increased ICE (and police) funding serve to suppress resistance and criminalize poverty. Steve emphasizes the need for organizing alternative institutions, building dual power. Charles hopes his book will help connect personal experiences with broader systemic issues, advocating for a collective response to the socio-economic crisis and reinforcing the necessity of long-term, sustainable organizing outside traditional party politics. Charles Derber, Professor of Sociology at Boston College, is the author of twenty-eight books, including the Wilding of America, The. Pursuit of Attention, Sociopathic Society, Corporation Nation, People Before Profit, Dying for Capitalism, Greed to Green, Welcome to the Revolution, and Who Owns Democracy - translated into 14 languages. He is a public sociologist and life-long activist, who writes about structural and cultural analysis of capitalism, public goods, the environment, and social movements seeking transformational change. He is a life-long activist for peace and social justice.

If we had the power to design our own political system, what would it look like? Stanford Professor James Fishkin talks with Steve about deliberative democracy, a method that brings together diverse, representative groups to weigh policy trade-offs in a fact-based, civil environment. He maintains that when people get the chance to discuss issues in depth, they often move away from extremes, suggesting that polarization isn’t as unbreakable as pundits claim. James presents some examples, like how deliberative polling in Texas led to a massive shift toward wind energy. Steve acknowledges his skepticism and asks whether James believes this could translate into real power, like shaping a federal job guarantee or breaking the corporate stranglehold on policy. James argues that while deliberative democracy isn’t a magic fix, it’s a tool to cut through misinformation and empower ordinary people, offering a glimpse of what democracy could be. (When we wrest control from the hands of the ruling class.) James S. Fishkin holds the Janet M. Peck Chair in International Communication at Stanford University where he is Professor of Communication, Professor of Political Science (by courtesy) and Director of the Deliberative Democracy Lab. He is the author of Democracy When the People Are Thinking (Oxford 2018), When the People Speak (Oxford 2009), Deliberation Day (Yale 2004 with Bruce Ackerman) and Democracy and Deliberation (Yale 1991). He is best known for developing Deliberative Polling® – a practice of public consultation that employs random samples of the citizenry to explore how opinions would change if they were more informed. His work on deliberative democracy has stimulated more than 100 Deliberative Polls in 28 countries around the world. It has been used to help governments and policy makers make important decisions in Texas, China, Mongolia, Japan, Macau, South Korea, Bulgaria, Brazil, Uganda and other countries around the world.

Dr. Charles LeBaron is a retired CDC scientist and the author of Greed to Do Good: The Untold Story of CDC's Disastrous War on Opioids. He talks with Steve about the ill-considered response to the opioid crisis and the tragic and preventable consequences of the CDC’s 2016 guidelines. Restricting prescriptions without providing treatment (whether for pain relief or addiction) drove users to illicit opioids like fentanyl and a surge in overdose deaths. The conversation expands to systemic issues, including the corporate greed of Big Pharma, political exploitation of the crisis, and the punitive rather than rehabilitative approach to addiction. Steve and Charles highlight how austerity policies and privatization exacerbate the epidemic, disproportionately harming working class and marginalized communities. They criticize current political responses, such as RFK Jr.’s proposed cuts to addiction treatment programs in favor of ineffective "healing farms," as emblematic of a broader failure to address root causes. Both emphasize the need for compassionate, science-driven solutions over criminalization, underscoring how public health and social equity are inextricably linked. For more than twenty-eight years, Charles LeBaron worked as a medical epidemiologist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). While there, he was the author of more than fifty scientific studies published in peer-reviewed journals, including first- or senior- author papers in the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association.

**You’re invited to join us Tuesday evening for Macro ‘n Chill, an online gathering where we can listen to and talk about this episode. Tuesday July 15, 8pm ET/5 pm PT Click here to register This week we're releasing an interview Steve did as a guest of Jim Byrne, host of MMT101 podcast. Steve and Jim have much in common, so it’s interesting to hear how their approaches differ. In part, this is related to the conditions of their nationalities. Jim, in Scotland, isn’t faced with the myth of political democracy. They have a devolved government, under the thumb of Westminster, with no control over the economic levers. The demands are straightforward: more money... and independence. Jim says he prefers to see MMT “purely as a technical – almost a technical description – with a bit of theory thrown in there, because of course T stands for theory.” Steve describes his 15-year journey with MMT. Originally, he focused on the “wonky stuff,” the mechanics of the monetary system. He came to understand that people aren’t interested until they can see how it relates to their own lives. Today he maintains that MMT should be connected to real-world issues such as class struggle, poverty, student debt, and geopolitical conflicts like the horrific situation in Gaza. The episode is a great conversation between two MMT activists. Despite their differences, they find they have much in common. Jim Byrne is currently developing an MMT foundation course aimed at beginners and intermediate learners, as well as people who already know about economics but are curious about Modern Monetary Theory. Follow his work and the MMT101 podcast at mmt101.substack.com @MMT101DotORG

**Tuesday evenings, we host an online listening party, Macro ‘n Chill, to discuss the current episode. It’s a great way to get to know other members of the community and talk about the ideas expressed in the podcast. Join us this Tuesday, July 8th, at 8 pm ET/5 pm PT Click HERE to register Scott Ferguson and Ben Wilson of the Money on the Left collective discuss their ‘Blue Bonds’ proposal with Steve. They explain how states can issue bonds to mitigate the federal austerity measures being enacted under the Trump administration. The conversation explores how this approach could democratize fiscal policy at the sub-federal level and empower local governments. Their proposal frames state-issued bonds as a democratic tool to counteract federal inefficiencies, foster local investment and engage communities in financial decision-making. They also address the ideological and practical barriers concerning the public's grasp of economic sovereignty, stressing the importance of understanding endogenous money creation and challenging the collective fear of public debt. Benjamin C. Wilson is an Associate Professor of Economics at the State University of New York at Cortland and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. Scott Ferguson is an Associate Professor of Film & Media Studies in the Department of Humanities & Cultural Studies at the University of South Florida and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He is co-host of Money on the Left podcast featured by Monthly Review.

Part of our mission is to introduce MMTers to socialism and socialists to MMT. We’ve had a few metaphorical doors slammed in our faces along the way. Former friends from the MMT community now delight in slinging accusations worthy of a HUAC hearing, while some socialists suspect modern monetary theory is just a sideshow of bourgeois economics. So, we didn’t know what to expect when we reached out to Justin and Jeremy, co-hosts of a podcast we’ve long admired. Compared to the vicious rejection we sometimes encounter, their good faith skepticism felt like a warm embrace. They invited Steve and Virginia to come onto Proles Pod and make a case for the radicalizing potential of MMT. The conversation goes into the role of the state in currency issuance, the coercive nature of taxation, and how MMT can critique and unveil the inherent power dynamics within capitalism. Austerity, that devastating weapon of class warfare, is not a glitch; it’s a feature. Virginia asks that listeners stop using the expression taxpayer money . “Even if you’re not ready to wrap your mind around MMT, just start calling it public money. You might not believe where it comes from but just stop. It's public money.” Given the classist, racist implications of relying on taxpayers to fund the government, a change in language is a good first step. Steve adds: “Whatever you tax, you immortalize. Whatever you tax, if you believe it's funding, you need forever.” The state is the source of currency; let’s stop elevating billionaires. They look at the relationship between currency manipulation, inflation, and global economic dominance. They also touch on Gramsci and the impact of cultural hegemony. Ultimately, they agree on the necessity of a class-based analysis as a prerequisite for revolutionary change. Proles Pod is a podcast about history, politics, and culture... without the liberalism Find their work at prolespod.libsyn.com/ Support them at patreon.com/prolespod Follow them @ProlesPod on X