Irregular Warfare Podcast

Episode 143 examines what enables certain guerrilla and insurgent forces to develop genuine military effectiveness on the battlefield. Our guests discuss why ideological cohesion, social ties, and material resources alone are insufficient for insurgents to successfully implement guerrilla strategies. Drawing on historical examples and a detailed analysis of the Taliban’s evolution in Afghanistan, they argue that success depends on the professionalization of the force—particularly the recruitment, training, and empowerment of skilled small-unit combat leaders who enable effective planning, realistic training, adaptation, and task-oriented cohesion. The conversation explores broader implications for understanding insurgencies, counterinsurgency challenges, and security force assistance programs. General (Ret.) Stan McChrystal is a retired U.S. Army four-star general, former commander of Joint Special Operations Command and International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, founder of the McChrystal Group, and author of multiple books on leadership and irregular warfare. Dr. Alec Worsnop is an Assistant Professor at the University of Maryland’s School of Public Policy and a Non-Resident Fellow at the Modern War Institute. His research focuses on insurgent military effectiveness, and this episode is based on his recent book titled Rebels in the Field: Cadres and the Development of Insurgent Military Power published by Oxford University Press. Kyle Atwell and Alisa Laufer are the hosts for episode 143. Please reach out to them with any questions about the episode or IWI. The Irregular Warfare Podcast is a production of the Irregular Warfare Initiative (IWI). We are a team of volunteers dedicated to bridging the gap between scholars and practitioners in the field of irregular warfare. IWI generates written and audio content, coordinates events for the IW community, and hosts critical thinkers in the field of irregular warfare as IWI fellows. You can follow and engage with us on Facebook , Twitter , Instagram , YouTube , or LinkedIn . Subscribe to our monthly newsletter for access to our written content, upcoming community events, and other resources. All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project. Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 142 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast features Dr. Jonathan Schroden, Mick Crnkovich, and Dave Maxwell for a deep dive into the Pentagon’s new irregular warfare policy instruction—DoD Instruction 3000.07—and what it signals about how the U.S. military understands, organizes for, and competes in irregular conflict. The discussion opens with why the Department of Defense updated its irregular warfare guidance after two decades of counterterrorism operations and amid renewed strategic competition with state adversaries. The guests explain how the new instruction reflects a shift away from a terrorism-centric framework toward recognizing irregular warfare as a persistent and central feature of great power competition. The panel then turns to the most contested element of the policy: the definition of irregular warfare itself. Jon, Mick, and Dave debate whether IW should be understood as a method of warfare, a theory of victory, or a distinct form of competition—arguing that while the definition matters, the real test will be whether the joint force changes how it plans, trains, and operates. The episode closes with a hard look at whether DoDI 3000.07 will translate into meaningful institutional change. The guests assess persistent obstacles to operationalizing IW—including force design, resourcing, and planning culture—and emphasize that success will depend on leadership more than policy language. Influence, not firepower, they argue, will be the most decisive component of competition in today’s security environment.

Episode 141 examines what the role of resistance operations are in the context of the broader war in Ukraine. Our guests begin by discussing whether resistance in occupied Ukraine has been effective. They argue that “Random Acts of Resistance” are not effective. Instead, resistance activities are most impactful when well synchronized with conventional military operations. The effective use of resistance activities faces multiple challenges though, the largest being the need to synchronize not only SOF and conventional forces on the battlefield, but also to control resistance entities that are often built from the grassroots civilian population. Our guests conclude that resistance operations are important, but they play a supporting role in a broader war. LTG Andy Rohling has held multiple senior military roles in Europe, to include during the current war in Ukraine. Most relevantly he served as the Deputy Chair of the NATO Military Committee and Deputy Commanding General of United States Army Europe. Jon Armstrong is a British Army Officer and author of the article “ Violent Resistance in Occupied Ukraine: An Assessment of Network Capabilities, Access, and Utility “ which this conversation is based on. He has multiple operational deployments and is a 2025 Non-Resident Fellow at the Irregular Warfare Initiative. Kyle Atwell and Dr. Olga Chiriac are the hosts for episode 141. Please reach out to them with any questions about the episode, the Irregular Warfare Podcast , or the IWI in Europe Program which Olga leads. Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 140 is a bonus episode built out of conversations held with panelists from the 2025 Irregular Warfare Initiative and Special Operations Association of America South America in Competition Conference. The South America in Competition Conference brought together over 250 researchers, practitioners, and members of industry for two days at the Carahsoft Headquarters in the DC area. The first day included panel discussions on irregular warfare challenges in the South America region. The second day included a detailed wargame with participation from a range of stakeholders, planned by the IWI Wargaming Division. For this bonus episode, IWI Podcast Host Jackie Giunta recorded three short conversations with conference participants following their panel presentations. First, IWI podcast host Jackie Giunta is joined by Dr. John Stockton, co-founder of Quantifind, Dave Cook from the Special Operations Association of America, and Dr. Ryan Berg from the Americas Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies to discuss using open source intelligence to track illicit financial networks. Next, Catherine Woods from the Institute for Financial Integrity discusses illicit financial flows and tools of economic statecraft to counter them. Last, Phil Fuster, a Vice President at SpyCloud, further discusses the importance of OSINT and the need to refocus on relationships in South America. Introducing and closing the episode are Doug Livermore, the IWI Director of Engagements, and Umar Ahmed Badami, Director of the IWI Wargaming Division. They also both planned this major event. Kyle Atwell provided editorial support for this episode. If you have an idea for a future event or war-game IWI should run, want to get involved in events, or want to provide material support so IWI can continue these important conversations - reach out to Doug or Umar directly. All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project. Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 139 examines how supply chains have become instruments of strategic competition and the implications for U.S. defense capabilities. Our guests discuss how China gained control over critical drone components originally invented in the United States and what this means for economic security and irregular warfare. Our guests begin by analyzing the "anatomy of a drone" to reveal how China leveraged consumer electronics manufacturing to dominate military supply chains. They then examine the "missing middle" in capital formation between venture funding and manufacturing scale, and how this gap undermines America's ability to compete in protracted economic campaigns. Finally, our guests discuss DIU's initiatives like Blue Manufacturing and Forge to rebuild domestic production capacity, the challenge of creating trusted supplier networks with allies, and how economic infrastructure has become both an offensive and defensive tool in modern warfare. Dr. Fiona Murray is the William Porter Professor of Entrepreneurship and Associate Dean of Innovation at MIT Sloan School of Management. She chairs the NATO Innovation Fund, a €1 billion venture capital fund investing across 24 NATO allies. Her recent research examines drone supply chain vulnerabilities and the geography of innovation. She previously served on the UK Prime Minister's Council of Science and Technology and holds a PhD from Harvard. Dr. John Griffin leads the Autonomy Portfolio and Boston office at the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU). A retired Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel with 28 years of service. He previously taught at the U.S. Naval War College and led regional engagement for the National Security Innovation Network. He holds a doctorate from Northeastern University and a master's from Harvard. All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project. Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 138 is a bonus episode built out of conversations held with panelists from the 2025 Irregular Warfare Initiative and Special Operations Association of America South America in Competition Conference. The South America in Competition Conference brought together over 250 researchers, practitioners, and members of industry for two days at the Carahsoft Headquarters in the DC area. The first day included panel discussions on irregular warfare challenges in the South America region. The second day included a detailed wargame with participation from a range of stakeholders, planned by the IWI Wargaming Division. For this bonus episode, IWI Podcast Host Jackie Giunta recorded four short conversations with conference participants following their panel presentations. First, Will Walker from Onebrief examines whether PRC strategy in South America is coercive or benign. Next, Adam Fife, the CEO of CenCore, discusses Chinese debt trap diplomacy. Third, Leland Lazarus discusses how China’s economic statecraft is another form of irregular warfare. Last, Dr. Evan Ellis, Professor of Latin American Studies at the U.S. Army War College, provides a broad overview of China’s strategy in South America. Introducing and closing the episode are Doug Livermore , the IWI Director of Engagements, and Umar Ahmed Badami , Director of the IWI Wargaming Division. They also both planned this major event. Kyle Atwell provided editorial support for this episode. If you have an idea for a future event or wargame IWI should run, want to get involved in events, or want to provide material support so IWI can continue these important conversations - reach out to Doug or Umar directly. Subscribe to our monthly newsletter for access to our written content, upcoming community events, and other resources. All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project. Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 137 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast continues our four-part series on the future of war, pairing renowned author and futurist August Cole with senior special operations leaders to explore how tomorrow’s conflicts may unfold. Our conversation centers on Cole’s short story On Their Own, which imagines U.S. Army Special Operations Forces advising a newly formed Thai commando unit amid Chinese-backed proxies, pervasive surveillance, organized crime, and accelerating technological change. The story spotlights how SOF teams may have to influence from the sidelines—helping partners integrate robotics, AI, and cyber tools—while competing for the strategic narrative in a contested Indo-Pacific environment. Joining us for this episode is Major General Jeff VanAntwerp , Commander of Special Operations Command–Pacific ( SOCPAC ). Together with August Cole, MG VanAntwerp discusses how Army SOF is adapting to new technologies, why trust with partners remains a timeless necessity, and what qualities will continue to define special operators in the years ahead. The discussion underscores that while future operators will be hyper-enabled with sensors, drones, and advanced AI, the human dimension of warfare—trust, adaptability, and leadership—remains constant. At the conclusion of the episode, listeners can hear a narrated excerpt from On Their Own, immersing them in the dilemmas SOF may face in the conflicts of the 2030s.

Episode 136 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines the fate of victorious rebel groups after civil wars—and why some remain loyal to post-war governments while others fragment, defect, or even overthrow the regimes they helped create. Our guests begin by exploring the core puzzle: conventional wisdom suggests that decisive victory produces stability, yet evidence shows that in more than half of cases, post-war militaries face crises within a decade. They then explain how wartime pressures shape the organizational choices of rebel groups—particularly the relationship between political leaders and field commanders—and how those choices carry forward into peacetime governance. Drawing on cases from Zimbabwe, Côte d’Ivoire, and across Africa, the discussion highlights why power-sharing arrangements often fail, why commitment problems undermine loyalty, and how the interests of commanders, rulers, and foreign partners diverge. Finally, the conversation turns to the limits of external security assistance, and what policymakers and practitioners should consider when working with post-conflict militaries. Dr. Philip A. Martin is an assistant professor at George Mason University. His research specializes in political violence and civil wars, peacebuilding, and African politics. His article, Insurgent Armies: Military Obedience and State Formation after Rebel Victory , serves as the anchor for today’s conversation. Brigadier General Allen J. Pepper is the commanding general of U.S. Army Security Assistance Command. A career foreign area officer with extensive experience across Africa, he has served in Mali, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and the Central African Republic.

Episode 135 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast kicks off a four-part series on the future of war, pairing renowned author and futurist August Cole with senior special operations leaders to explore how tomorrow’s conflicts may unfold. Our conversation centers on Cole’s short story Safe Harbor II , which envisions Marine Raiders operating in a near-future environment saturated with proxy terrorism, relentless information warfare, and AI-enabled surveillance. The story highlights how SOF teams will grapple with great-power adversaries who weaponize terrorist groups to justify intervention, forcing small units to fight not only for tactical advantage but also to control the strategic narrative. Joining us for this episode is Major General Peter Huntley , Commander of Marine Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC). Together with August Cole, MajGen Huntley discusses how MARSOC is adapting to new technologies, why trust with partners remains a timeless necessity, and what qualities will continue to define Raiders in the decades ahead. The discussion underscores that while future operators will be hyper-enabled with drones, sensors, and advanced AI, the human dimension of warfare—trust, adaptability, and leadership—remains constant. At the conclusion of the episode, listeners will hear a narrated excerpt from Safe Harbor II, immersing them in the dilemmas Marine Raiders may face in the conflicts of 2040. Ben Jebb and Don Edwards are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Don with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Episode 134 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the rising risks of conflict over Taiwan and how the United States and its allies can strengthen deterrence against Beijing. Our guests begin by assessing why deterrence is faltering globally, from the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and how those events inform Chinese perceptions of American resolve. They then discuss the stakes of a Taiwan contingency—economic, ideological, and strategic—highlighting the island’s critical role in global semiconductor supply chains and as a thriving democracy on China’s periphery. The conversation turns to the balance of forces across the Strait, Taiwan’s defense culture, and the full spectrum of Chinese coercive activity, from gray-zone operations to potential military invasion. Finally, our guests offer recommendations for how Taiwan, the United States, and partners like Japan, Australia, and Europe can bolster deterrence before conflict breaks out. Matt Pottinger is a distinguished national security professional who served as U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor from 2019 to 2021. He is the editor of The Boiling Moat , a new volume analyzing deterrence and security dynamics across the Taiwan Strait. Matt Turpin is a former U.S. National Security Council Director for China and a retired U.S. Army officer. He is currently a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, where his research focuses on U.S.-China relations and strategic competition. Ben Jebb and Katherine Michaelson are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Katherine with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Episode 133 is the second installment in our two-part series exploring how the United States can leverage non-kinetic instruments of power to compete effectively without resorting to military force. Building on our previous discussion, our guests examine America's strategic blind spots in treating economics and information as support tools rather than primary domains of competition. They discuss the integration challenges across U.S. government agencies, highlighting how autocratic adversaries coordinate their instruments of power more effectively while the U.S. struggles with inter-agency dysfunction. The conversation explores the military's evolving role in peacetime competition, with insights from Afghanistan on the challenges of integrating all elements of American power. Our guests introduce the concept of "resilient interdependence" as an organizing principle for the 21st century—unlike Cold War containment, this approach emphasizes strengthening connections with allies while hardening soft targets like supply chains and digital infrastructure. Finally, they identify critically underused economic tools including export credits, development finance, outbound investment controls, and industrial policy that could strengthen America's competitive position against strategic rivals. Lieutenant General David W. Barno (Ret.) is a Professor of Practice at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. During his thirty-year Army career, he commanded at every level including nineteen months as the senior American commander in Afghanistan, where he was responsible for 20,000 U.S. and coalition forces and implemented a new counterinsurgency strategy. Following his military service, he served as Director of the Near East South Asia Center at National Defense University and held positions at the Center for a New American Security. He is the co-author of "Adaptation Under Fire: How Militaries Change in Wartime." Dr. Rebecca Patterson is the Associate Director of the Security Studies Program at Georgetown University and Professor of the Practice of International Affairs. A retired U.S. Army officer with over 22 years of experience, she served in Thailand, Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan. She previously served as Deputy Director in the Office of Peacekeeping Operations, Sanctions, and Counter-terrorism at the State Department. She is the author of "The Challenge of Nation-Building: Implementing Effective Innovation in the U.S. Army from World War II to the Iraq War" and the recently published "Winning Without Fighting." Don Edwards and Jackie Giunta are the hosts for Episode 133. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast .

Episode 132 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores how strategic culture shapes approaches to irregular warfare and competition in the gray zone. This is part one of a two-part series examining why nations conceptualize irregular warfare differently and how cultural biases affect competition below the threshold of armed conflict. Our guests discuss why irregular warfare must be central to American grand strategy in an age of crisis and competition. Dr. Susan Bryant shares insights from her book "Winning Without Fighting," examining how American strategic culture - with its preference for binaries, belief that war is aberrant, and faith in technological solutions - creates disadvantages against adversaries operating in the gray zone. Drawing from their extensive operational and academic experience, both guests explore historical examples from Afghanistan, Iraq, and El Salvador to illustrate how cultural biases and quantification obsession undermine irregular warfare efforts. Dr. Susan Bryant is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and Johns Hopkins University. A retired Army Colonel with 28 years of service, she is co-author of "Winning Without Fighting" and currently serves as Executive Director of Strategic Education International. Dr. Thomas X. Hammes is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies at National Defense University. A retired Marine Corps Colonel with 30 years of service, he is the author of "The Sling and the Stone" and has extensive operational experience in insurgency and irregular warfare. Don Edwards and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 125. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast .

Episode 132 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores how strategic culture shapes approaches to irregular warfare and competition in the gray zone. This is part one of a two-part series examining why nations conceptualize irregular warfare differently and how cultural biases affect competition below the threshold of armed conflict. Our guests discuss why irregular warfare must be central to American grand strategy in an age of crisis and competition. Dr. Susan Bryant shares insights from her book "Winning Without Fighting," examining how American strategic culture - with its preference for binaries, belief that war is aberrant, and faith in technological solutions - creates disadvantages against adversaries operating in the gray zone. Drawing from their extensive operational and academic experience, both guests explore historical examples from Afghanistan, Iraq, and El Salvador to illustrate how cultural biases and quantification obsession undermine irregular warfare efforts. Dr. Susan Bryant is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and Johns Hopkins University. A retired Army Colonel with 28 years of service, she is co-author of "Winning Without Fighting" and currently serves as Executive Director of Strategic Education International. Dr. Thomas X. Hammes is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies at National Defense University. A retired Marine Corps Colonel with 30 years of service, he is the author of "The Sling and the Stone" and has extensive operational experience in insurgency and irregular warfare. Don Edwards and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 125. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast .

Episode 131 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the growing phenomenon of "security hybridization," where countries receive simultaneous security assistance from both the United States and the People’s Republic of China. While the U.S. tends to emphasize regional defense, interoperability, and support for the global commons, China focuses on internal security, law enforcement training, and regime protection. Our guests examine how this dual-track approach is reshaping global security partnerships—and what it means for the future of great power competition. Professor Sheena Chestnut Greitens offers insights from her recently publish article, Security without Exclusivity: Hybrid Alignment under U.S.-China Competition , while Jon Finer draws on his experience as former Deputy National Security Advisor to assess the implications for U.S. policy and strategy.

Episode 130 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast takes listeners inside Operation Spider’s Web—Ukraine’s bold campaign of long-range drone strikes targeting Russian military and industrial infrastructure. Our guests begin by examining why Ukrainian defense planners opted for this unprecedented strike operation and how it was designed to disrupt Russian strategic depth. They then unpack the technical, operational, and strategic considerations that enabled the operation, including the role of commercial drones, asymmetric targeting, and irregular doctrine. The episode concludes with reflections on how Spider’s Web is reshaping our understanding of deep operations and irregular warfare in the 21st century. Brigadier General Kip Kahler is the former Senior Defense Official and Defense Attaché to Ukraine, with over two decades of national service in strategic roles across the interagency and foreign militaries. COL Brian Petit is a retired SF Army officer who teaches and consults on strategy, planning, special operations, and resistance. He is an adjunct for the Joint Special Operations University. Kateryna Bondar is a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and a former advisor to the Ukrainian government, where she led reforms in defense and innovation. Her article, entitled How Ukraine’s Operation “Spider’s Web” Redefines Asymmetric Warfare , serves as the anchor for episode 130.

Episode 129 examines how Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC) is recalibrating for great-power competition while still answering today’s crisis-response and counter-VEO demands. Lieutenant General Michael E. Conley and Dr Kerry Chávez join the Irregular Warfare Podcast to unpack strategy, technology, and talent development at the sharp edge of irregular warfare. Our guests begin by outlining AFSOC’s new strategic guidance—“Raise Air Commandos, Win Tonight’s Fight, and Sustain Relevance through Adaptation”—and describe how it builds on earlier reforms to balance crisis-response duties with preparation for peer competition. They then explore the “democratized skies” created by low-cost uncrewed aircraft systems, discussing implications for pallet-dropped drone swarms, counter-UAS, and agile acquisition. Finally, the conversation turns to force design and human capital, offering insights on cultivating Air Commandos who can integrate AI-enabled decision aids and out-cycle adversaries inside the OODA loop. Lieutenant General Michael E. Conley is the Commander of Air Force Special Operations Command. A career special-operations aviator with more than 2,400 flight hours in the UH-1, MH-53, and CV-22, he has commanded at the squadron, wing, and combined-joint task-force levels and previously served as Special Assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. His assignments have ranged from rescuing hostages to leading space-component forces, and his decorations include the Distinguished Service Medal and Bronze Star. As AFSOC’s chief, he oversees 20,800 Air Commandos and a $17 billion portfolio and champions “relevance through adaptation” to integrate SOF agility with Air Force mass. Dr Kerry Chávez is an assistant professor in the Military & Strategic Studies Department at the U.S. Air Force Academy and an advisor to IWI’s Project Air & Space Power. She is also a two-time nonresident research fellow with the Modern War Institute at West Point and a fellow with the Institute for Global Affairs. Her work blends political science and data science to analyze emerging military technologies; she curates the MONSTr dataset on U.S. operations with novel capabilities and a pioneering global database of non-state-actor drone adoption. Dr Chávez regularly briefs DoD and industry leaders on counter-UAS strategy, synthetic data methods, and technology governance.

Episode 128 marks a special milestone as the Irregular Warfare Podcast celebrates its five-year anniversary. Our guests reflect on the journey from a simple podcast idea in a graduate school classroom to a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization with over 70 volunteers worldwide. They share the origin story of IWI, trace its evolution from podcast to comprehensive platform including written content and fellowship programs, and discuss the strategic vision for the next five years—including new initiatives like a peer-reviewed journal and expanded efforts to reach broader audiences across the interagency and international community. Kyle Atwell is an IWI Co-founder and current Chairman of the Board. An active-duty Army officer and Atlantic Council Senior Fellow, he holds a PhD from Princeton University and previously served as an Assistant Professor at West Point. Kyle co-founded the Irregular Warfare Initiative while in graduate school, recognizing the need to make academic insights accessible to practitioners in the field. Shawna Sinnott is an IWI Co-founder and Chair of the Board of Advisors. She is an active-duty Marine Corps Major with operational deployments across the Middle East, West Asia, and Africa. Shawna holds a PhD in Political Science from Stanford University and previously served as IWI's Executive Director from 2020-2022. Guido Torres is IWI's Executive Director and a Harvard National Security Fellow alumnus. A U.S. Army veteran with extensive experience in Latin America and special operations, he also serves as an Atlantic Council Senior Fellow. Guido's journey with IWI began as an avid listener of the podcast before joining as a volunteer and ultimately assuming executive leadership of the organization. The Irregular Warfare Podcast is always seeking motivated prospective hosts. If you're a military officer on an educational sabbatical, contact us and get involved.

Episode 127 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the lasting impact of the Global War on Terrorism and what the United States has inherited—militarily, politically, and socially—after twenty years of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our guests begin by examining how the U.S. military has historically navigated post-war transitions, particularly following protracted irregular conflicts. They then evaluate the consequences of the post-9/11 wars on the military institution, the broader national security establishment, and American society at large. The episode concludes with a forward-looking discussion about the strategic lessons learned and what they might mean for future great power competition and conflict. The Honorable Mara Karlin is a Professor of Practice at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. She has held senior national security roles for six U.S. Secretaries of Defense and most recently served as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Strategy, Plans, and Capabilities. Her newly published book, The Inheritance: America’s Military After Two Decades of War, anchors today’s discussion. Major General (retired) John Ferrari is a nonresident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. He focuses on the defense budget, reform, and acquisition, and previously served as director of program analysis and evaluation in the Army. Over his 32-year military career, he also served as a strategic planner for Operation Iraqi Freedom and as a deputy commander at the NATO Training Mission in Afghanistan. Ben Jebb and Alisa Laufer are the hosts for this episode. Please reach out to Ben and Alisa with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

Episode 126 examines the evolution of proxy warfare and hybrid threats in the current security environment. Our guests explore how states increasingly delegate conflict to non-state actors and leverage hybrid approaches to achieve strategic objectives below the threshold of conventional war. Our guests begin by exploring the conceptual foundations of proxy warfare and how it has evolved from historical conflicts to modern battlefields in Ukraine, Syria, and beyond. They then discuss the integration of hybrid threat tactics—spanning military, political, economic, and information domains—within proxy relationships. Finally, our guests analyze the implications for defense policy, offering insights into how both NATO and EU countries are adapting to counter these complex security challenges. Dr. Vladimir Rauta is an Associate Professor of International Security with the School of Philosophy, Politics and Economics at the University of Reading. He was a 2023 Non-Resident Fellow with the Irregular Warfare Initiative. Vladimir's research examines the delegation of war from states to armed non-state actors in the contemporary security environment. He has published extensively in journals such as International Security and is one of the editors of the recently published Routledge Handbook of Proxy Wars. Dr. Teija Tiilikainen is the Director of the European Centre of Excellence for Countering Hybrid Threats. Previously, she was the Director of the Finnish Institute of International Affairs and has served as Secretary of State at the Ministry for Foreign Affairs of Finland. Her extensive policy experience and research on European integration and security policy provide valuable insights into countering hybrid threats in the modern security landscape.

Episode 125 examines the impact of Ukraine's irregular warfare and resistance operations on its broader strategic objectives. Our guests discuss how Ukrainian resistance activities have evolved throughout the conflict and evaluate their strategic importance in the war against Russia. Our guests begin by describing how Ukrainian resistance and irregular warfare activities developed through different phases of the war, from initial guerrilla tactics during the invasion to the sophisticated long-range attacks within Russian territory. They then assess whether these operations accomplish battlefield effects, their influence on escalation dynamics, and how they shape both Ukrainian and Russian populations' perceptions of the war. Finally, our guests provide insights on the synergy between conventional and special operations forces, the role of technology in resistance, and lessons that can be applied to future conflicts. Lieutenant General (Ret.) Mark Hertling served for 38 years in the US Army as a tanker and cavalryman, serving at every level from tank platoon leader to Commander of the 7th Army. He retired in December 2012 after serving as the Commanding General of US Army Europe, where he led over 60,000 soldiers and partnered with the armies of 51 nations. LTG Hertling worked with Ukrainian forces as early as 2004 and has extensive experience in military transformation and coalition operations. Dr. Alexandra Chinchilla is an Assistant Professor of International Affairs at Texas A&M's Bush School of Government and Public Service. Her research examines how powerful states use security cooperation tools to increase their influence over allies, partners, and proxies, with extensive research on the war in Ukraine. She has conducted fieldwork in Ukraine since the full-scale invasion and serves as an advisor to the IWI Special Project on Proxies and Partners.

Episode 124 explores the evolution and future of Special Operations Forces (SOF) through the lens of " The Fourth Age ," a work of fictional intelligence examining future SOF capabilities and missions. Our guests discuss how SOF has evolved through distinct eras since World War II and examine how emerging technologies and domains will shape special operations in the 2030s and beyond. Our guests begin by exploring the utility of storytelling and "useful fiction" in military education and planning. They then examine the historical development of SOF through three distinct ages, from its OSS origins through the Cold War and Global War on Terror. Finally, they discuss how SOF is evolving to meet future challenges through the integration of space, cyber, and emerging technologies while maintaining its core human element. General Bryan P. Fenton is the Commander of U.S. Special Operations Command. He has previously commanded at every level from Detachment Command in 7th Special Forces Group through commanding Joint Special Operations Command. He is a graduate of the University of Notre Dame and has served on active duty for over 37 years. Command Sergeant Major Shane Shorter is the Command Senior Enlisted Leader for U.S. Special Operations Command. He enlisted in the Army as an Infantryman in 1988 and joined special forces in 1992. He spent much of his career in 1st Special Forces Group and recently served as senior enlisted leader for Special Operations Command Pacific, U.S. Indo-Pacific Command, and the Joint Special Operations University. August Cole is an author exploring the future of conflict through fiction and fictional intelligence storytelling. With P.W. Singer , he is the co-author of the bestseller "Ghost Fleet: A Novel of the Next World War" and "Burn In: A Novel of the Real Robotic Revolution." He is a co-founder and managing partner at Useful Fiction, focusing on defense and security.

Episode 123 explores the critical role of security force assistance (SFA) and identifies the key factors that influence the effectiveness of building foreign armies. Our guests start by situating SFA within the broader context of Washington’s national security strategy. They then analyze the variables that impact the success of security assistance, including the importance of language proficiency, advisor-to-force ratios, and the role of combat advising in shaping outcomes. Finally, they offer actionable recommendations for practitioners and policymakers to enhance the effectiveness of security force assistance in the future. Dr. Frank Sobchak is a retired Special Forces colonel who served in various assignments in war and peace during his 26-year military career. He is Chair of Irregular Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute and serves as a Senior Fellow at the Global and National Security Institute. Dr. Sobchak’s newly published book, “ Training for Victory ,” examines security force assistance and serves as the anchor for today’s conversation. JoAnn Naumann currently serves as the USASOC Command Sergeant Major. Over the course of her 28-year career, she has completed over fourteen deployments throughout the Middle East and Africa, and has served as the senior enlisted advisor for multiple organizations within the Special Operations community. CSM Naumann holds a bachelor’s degree from the College of William & Mary.

Episode 122 examines a unique theory on Irregular War that challenges both historical and contemporary frameworks on the topic. The guests conduct an in-depth discussion and debate over the complexities of Irregular War and its implications for the U.S. in future conflicts throughout the globe. Our guests define and discuss the various terminology commonly used amongst the irregular warfare community as the foundation for introducing the concept of the “dysfunctional sovereign.” They then debate the strengths and weaknesses of this theory of irregular war and its utility within the context of the current global threat environment. Our guests then provide insight into understanding the importance of both allied and adversarial perspectives on the subject, the shortcomings of current U.S. military doctrine related to irregular war, and how the U.S. should adapt its approach in the future. Lastly, they provide recommendations for how policymakers and practitioners can better approach irregular warfare in the future. Jonathan Hackett is a U.S. Marine with two decades of experience running complex intelligence operations and special activities in dozens of countries across four continents. He finished his military career leading the only formal school in the Marine Corps making military advisors for our allies and partners. During his time in the Marine Corps, he held positions at the Defense Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency, and Special Operations Command prior to teaching in Dam Neck, Virginia. In addition to his book Theory of Irregular War, Jonathan writes extensively on security cooperation, irregular conflicts, and clandestine intelligence activities. Dr. Sandor Fabian is a defense Contractor at Morgan6 LLC. supporting the Irregular Warfare Center as deputy regional advisor for Europe and Africa. Dr. Fabian is a former Hungarian Special Forces officer with 20+ years of military experience and has served in multiple national and international assignments including the Assessment and Evaluation Branch head at the NATO Special Operations Headquarters. Dr. Fabian has published numerous journal articles and op-eds on resistance, special operations, small countries’ defense frameworks, U.S. security assistance programs, and is the author of the book titled, Irregular Warfare: The future Military Strategy for Small States.

Episode 121 explores China's use of armed coercion and its implications for irregular warfare with James Siebens and Jimmy Wang. Our guests begin by examining how China employs both military and paramilitary forces to advance its territorial claims in disputed areas. They then discuss how psychological warfare, lawfare, and maritime operations intersect in the Indo-Pacific region, highlighting China's sophisticated approach to coercion below the threshold of armed conflict. Finally, our guests offer insights into effective deterrence strategies and policy recommendations for addressing China's coercive activities in the region. James Siebens is a Fellow at the Stimson Center and author of "China's Use of Armed Coercion." His research focuses on international security, with particular emphasis on analyzing gray zone conflicts and military coercion. Through his work, he examines how nations employ armed forces to advance political objectives without engaging in sustained conflict, providing valuable insights into modern strategic competition. Jimmy Wang is a Non-Resident Fellow at the Stimson Center and former Navy Foreign Area Officer. During his distinguished military career, he served as Northeast Asia Desk Officer for the Chief of Naval Operations and advised U.S. Pacific Fleet on Chinese naval affairs. His firsthand experience in planning and executing Military Maritime Consultative Agreement talks with China provides unique perspectives on maritime security dynamics in the Indo-Pacific region.

Episode 120 explores the critical role of Foreign Area Officers (FAOs) in irregular warfare and strategic competition with Mike Burgoyne and Jim Marckwardt. Our guests examine the foundational aspects of the FAO program and its evolution, highlighting how FAOs serve as "Pentagon diplomats" maintaining critical defense relationships worldwide. They then discuss how FAOs excel in the gray zone between peace and war, exploring case studies from Plan Colombia to Afghanistan. Finally, our guests offer insights into how senior leaders can better utilize FAO expertise in developing and implementing irregular warfare strategies. Michael Burgoyne is a retired U.S. Army Colonel, Assistant Professor of Practice at the University of Arizona, and a PhD candidate at King's College London. His extensive experience includes serving as Senior Defense Official in Guatemala, Defense Attaché in Afghanistan, and Army Attaché in Mexico. As a Foreign Area Officer, he developed advanced language capabilities and regional expertise across Latin America. He holds master's degrees in Security Studies from Georgetown University and Strategic Studies from the U.S. Army War College, and is the coauthor of "The Defense of Jisr al-Doreaa," a tactical primer on modern counterinsurgency. Albert "Jim" Marckwardt is a retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel, Administrator and Adjunct Associate Professor at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), and Associate Professor & Faculty Lead at Defense Security Cooperation University. His extensive experience includes serving as Country Director at the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Policy, where he formulated defense policy for Colombia and Venezuela, and as Political Military Advisor at Joint Task Force Bravo in Honduras. He holds a Doctor of International Affairs from Johns Hopkins SAIS and brings over 30 years of leadership experience spanning combat operations, security cooperation, international diplomacy, and policy development.