Most people facing legal problems don’t see them as legal at all—they see them as life problems with landlords, employers, or benefits agencies. That disconnect leaves millions without meaningful help, even when lawyers or courts are available. In this episode, Zack Glaser talks with Professor Rebecca Sandefur (Arizona State University, American Bar Foundation) and Matthew Burnett (Georgetown Law, ABF) about their research on community justice workers and why people-centered solutions may be the key to closing the justice gap. They explore how community justice workers operate in Alaska and beyond, why legal help doesn’t always have to come from lawyers, and how rules around unauthorized practice of law are evolving. You’ll hear evidence that trained non-lawyers can be just as effective—sometimes more so—than attorneys in resolving critical issues like housing or benefits. Rebecca and Matthew also discuss what “success” really means: scalable, sustainable programs that meet people where they are, in their own communities, in their own language. And they argue that broadening access to justice isn’t just about legal services—it’s about strengthening democracy itself. This episode is for lawyers, policymakers, and innovators who want to reimagine how legal help is delivered—and build a justice system that actually works for the people it’s meant to serve. Additionally, Zack and Stephanie talk about the upcoming ClioCon 2025 in Boston, MA. Check out the conference and get your tickets at cliocon.com. Use the code “LawyeristxClioCon” for a $300 discount on your ticket. Listen to our other episodes on Access To Justice: #129: The Business of Public Access to Law, with Tim Stanley Apple | Spotify | LTN #228: The Real Access-to-Justice Problem and How We Might Solve It, with Rebecca Sandefur Apple | Spotify | LTN #423: Bridging the Access to Justice Gap with Technology, with Sateesh Nori Apple | Spotify | LTN #440: A Path to Meaningful Regulations, with Rebecca Sandefur Apple | Spotify | LTN If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you. Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com. Chapters/Timestamps: 00:00 – Fall & ClioCon in Boston05:24 – Meet Rebecca Sandefur & Matthew Burnett06:50 – A People-Centered Justice Approach11:08 – Community Justice Workers Explained15:55 – Legal Help Without Lawyers20:31 – What Success Really Looks Like25:23 – State Models & Next Steps34:30 – Scaling Justice & Strengthening Democracy38:49 – Final Takeaways
