On the podcast I talk with John about the fascinating 40-year history of Apple’s developer relations, how almost going bankrupt in the 1990s shaped today’s control-focused approach, and why we might need an ‘App Store 3.0’ reset. Top Takeaways: 🕹️ The 1980s: Apple’s developer DNA was born Apple’s earliest wins came from nurturing third-party developers, even spinning off its own apps to avoid competing with outsiders. 💸 Microsoft saved Apple (literally) Apple’s near-bankruptcy in the ’90s made them both humble and wary—forever shaping how they deal with developers and competition. 🍎 From “please build for us” to “we choose you” WWDC 2008 saw Apple begging for apps and evangelist emails on slides; today, it’s the other way around. 🖥️ The “Delicious Era” fueled iPhone success Mac indie devs (Panic, Delicious Monster, Bare Bones) built a design-obsessed, passionate community—setting the stage for the iPhone App Store boom. 🚪 App Store 1.0: A new world for indies For the first time, solo developers could launch businesses from home. No server costs, no payments hassle—just build, submit, and sell. 🏦 Apple’s rules got stricter as the App Store grew As the App Store became a services giant, the partnership vibe faded. Developers went from partners to “users” of Apple’s marketplace. 📉 App Store math now feels upside down Today, indie devs can pay Apple millions, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing. The fee logic and incentives don’t fit 2025. ⏳ The platform needs an “App Store 3.0” reset John and David call for a new era: lower fees, clearer rules, and Apple acting as a true platform partner—not just a toll booth. 🔄 Developer enthusiasm is Apple’s long-term moat Apple risks becoming a “legacy only” giant if it loses developer goodwill. The most important apps are still built by outsiders. 👥 A generational handoff is coming With Apple’s senior leadership nearing retirement, now is the time to set new priorities: empower developers, invest in the ecosystem, and ensure Apple’s platforms stay vibrant for decades to come. About John Gruber: 🚀 Author of the Daring Fireball blog, host of The Talk Show , and co-creator of Markdown . 🍎 John is a lifelong Apple fan and is passionate about discussing all things iPhone, App Store, and developer relations. 💡 “I feel like Apple is dwelling on the success and the innovation that completely revolutionized the phone industry […] for too long and that they should move on and build something else new.” 👋 Daring Fireball Resources: Bill Gates in 1984 promoting Apple Macintosh Bill Gates on stage with Steve Jobs in 1983 The Macintosh Way — Guy Kawasaki Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X — Aaron Hillegass Daring Fireball Follow us on X: David Barnard - @drbarnard Jacob Eiting - @jeiting RevenueCat - @RevenueCat SubClub - @SubClubHQ Episode Highlights: [0:00] Apple Kremlinology: Why understanding Apple requires a special kind of obsession - and a long memory. [4:58] Fanboys unite: David shares how his love of Apple led him from audio engineer to App Store developer. [8:48] Turning point: John’s link to David’s iPhone mileage app in 2008 helped jumpstart his indie career. [13:37] Joz, Phil, and Eddy: The developer relations and most of the App Store are overseen by three Apple execs who joined in the ‘80s. [17:01] The crossroads: How Apple’s early decision to unbundle first-party apps in the ‘80s encouraged third-party innovation. [21:25] Hands off: Why Apple’s decade-long retreat from building software paved the way for a thriving developer ecosystem. [27:07] Vision parallels: John compares Vision Pro’s slow start to the original Mac - and explains why it doesn’t have to be perfect (yet). [30:32] Betting on the future: How Apple playing the long-game is their biggest advantage in launching and sustaining new platforms. [33:55] What comes after the Mac: The ‘90s were filled with failed next-gen Apple platforms - and it almost killed the company. [36:47] Burned by success: Apple’s trauma from near-bankruptcy shaped their need to control developer relationships. [41:13] The App Store revolution: Why the 2008 launch of the App Store wasn’t just a business move, it was a turning point for software itself. [45:07] Developer momentum: How passionate indie devs and Mac software of the 2000s primed the iPhone for success. [53:46] iPhone jailbreakers: Why the jailbreak community may have pushed Apple to launch the SDK sooner than expected. [57:39] App Store 2.0: In 2016, Apple dropped some commission rates, opened up subscriptions, and kicked off a new era. [1:03:03] Time for 3.0: Why David believes the App Store needs another reset - and a shift in mindset. [1:08:26] Humility and hardware : Steve Jobs’ 1997 apology to a developer at WWDC still echoes - and it’s exactly what developers need to hear in 2025. [1:13:30] Holding on too tight: How Apple’s fear of losing control is costing them developer goodwill. [1:26:35] A legacy worth protecting : The iPhone isn’t going anywhere - bu
