Vollständiges Transkript anzeigen 0:43 offering on-campus, online, 0:45 and hybrid learning environments. 0:47 Hands-on classes are designed to prepare you 0:49 for skills for industry. 0:50 and online programs have a supportive community from all over the country. 0:54 This is Purpose Driven Education. Take action. Find your purpose. Grand Canyon University. 1:00 Visit gcu.edu. 1:08 Hi there, I'm Keith Morrison and this is Talking Dateline 1:10 and we are joined today by the illustrious Josh Mankewitz. 1:15 Actually, the real Josh Mankewitz is as opposed to some, you know, 1:20 fakery Josh Mankewitz which I've been seeing on social media lately. 1:23 I'm Josh Mankiewicz. I'm Josh Mankiewicz. 1:27 Will the real Josh Mankiewicz please stand up? 1:32 I think an argument can be made that that's the real Josh Mankiewicz. 1:35 Wait a minute. You're the fakey guy. 1:38 That's right. The other one was the real one. He looked like a nice fella. 1:43 So I'm here in Boston to meet in person somebody that I really only know from the online world. 1:48 And here's the thing, his name is Joshua Mankiewicz. 1:54 Alert viewers in Dateline may have noticed 1:56 that's also my name. 1:57 So it's almost time that we meet. 2:02 Josh Mankiewicz. 2:03 Josh Mankiewicz. 2:04 Josh Mankiewicz. 2:05 Good to meet you. 2:06 Nice to meet you. 2:07 You're taller than I expected. 2:09 You're taller than almost any other Mankiewicz that I know. 2:12 Now anybody who has not seen this reunion 2:15 of the two Josh Mankiewiczes on social media 2:18 might be able to find it. 2:19 Anyway, we have Josh Michaelis to talk about the episode, our season premiere of our 35th 2:26 season. 2:27 It was called The Family Plot. 2:29 The story begins with a man shot to death in the foyer, I guess, or the hall of his 2:34 in-laws' house, mother-in-law's house. 2:37 And then there's a long and twisted investigation to see what happened. 2:40 And I will say that from very early on in this episode, nobody else may have noticed 2:45 but I sure did, that that young detective, A, was very impressive, and B, looked so much 2:53 like a guy you could see on Scandinavian murder mystery stories on television named Olafer 3:02 Olofsson. 3:02 Have you ever seen him? 3:04 Oh, he's the star of Trapped, which is- 3:07 Exactly that. 3:08 Iceland. 3:09 It's said in Iceland so good. 3:11 But the dogginess and the sincerity were also shared traits, and I was an admirer of that. 3:19 You did a great job. 3:20 Yeah. Well, anyway, before we get to the story, why don't you listen to the episode, 3:25 if you haven't yet. You can find it right below this one or stream it on Peacock and then come 3:29 right back here. And when you come back, we'll have more from Tracy Grist's police interview. 3:33 The night Matt was killed, and later we'll answer some of your questions from social media. 3:37 All right, let's talk dateline. 3:40 This was a good one. 3:42 This was just, I love the investigative part of it. 3:45 It really followed this investigative trail. 3:47 What was your impression of the thing when you began to hear the details? 3:51 Well, I mean, it is mind-boggling when you sort of look at this. 3:57 I mean, they lured this guy from California to Utah. 4:02 uh, you know, mom sort of involved as many members of her family as she could in doing 4:09 that. 4:10 And they all kind of, I guess, did what she said. 4:13 Uh, I guess they were kind of used to that over the years. 4:16 And then they tell this phony story that Matt, the victim in this, uh, you know, came 4:22 in aggressively and pushed Kevin up against a wall and he had a knife and like instantly, 4:28 you know, there's things wrong with that scenario. 4:30 I mean, it fell apart from the beginning. 4:33 I mean, Kevin, the brother who fired the shot, the shots, he was, Matt was shot seven times. 4:40 He was taken into custody that night despite his argument that it was a self-defense shooting. 4:46 The cops didn't believe that for a second. 4:48 And Kevin, I think, was never out of custody again. 4:51 Like he went in instantly and that was the end of that. 4:54 And then the only question was, who else was involved? 4:57 The hapless Kevin, I think you could say. 4:59 And by the way, if they thought they were going to get away with it, that plot started 5:03 crumbling from the beginning. 5:07 You know, he's shot through the wrist, but he's still holding the knife. 5:10 He's holding the knife in his wrong hand. 5:12 He took off his shoes before he came into the living room, right? 5:16 Something that home invaders generally don't do. 5:19 Well, they clearly were a bunch of amateur murderers. 5:22 No question about that. 5:23 I think the plan was to just make it sound like Matt was an angry, you know, vengeful 5:28 guy and he, you know, came over barged in, you know, they'd taken the screen door off 5:34 to make it easier for him to come in the house. And she says, she says to him in the calls, 5:40 like, you're coming in, right? You're going to come in. I need your help with the kids, 5:43 you know, getting all their stuff. And the kid stuff was not packed, which would, 5:48 which it would have been if Matt's going to collect them and they're going to go home. 5:51 So, of course, everything about this fell apart. 5:57 You know, there are blankets on the furniture to keep blood spatter off it. 6:01 That's not something you generally do. 6:04 Kevin, who fires the shot, has a holster in his pocket. 6:08 I don't think you walk around your house at night with your gun in a holster on your 6:13 hip unless you're planning to or expecting to use it. 6:17 That definitely stood out for police. 6:19 No question. That's the old check-off notion that if a gun makes an appearance, 6:25 it's going to be used in the next act. And it was indeed in this story. Yeah. 6:31 But I'm interested in the architecture of this family. My impression was, and I'd like to 6:35 know your impression, is that it all went back, as you said, to the mother. What was your sense 6:40 of her character, her personality, or maybe her psychiatric quirks? 6:46 But she had gotten away with a lot of crimes, smaller than this, as far as we know. 6:53 But she'd gotten away with a lot of crimes, like all her life. 6:56 Some of them she justified by saying she needed to feed her family, so that's why she shop 6:59 lifted. 7:00 But she also stole money from her friends, from people she knew regularly. 7:05 And so I said, we can no longer be friends. 7:08 Tracy denied stealing from Terry but seemed fine with that long friendship 7:14 being over, as long as she didn't get into trouble. She has a way of talking her 7:22 way out of things that blows my mind. So what I think she thought is that I am 7:28 smarter than law enforcement kind of in the aggregate and if we tell a 7:34 plausible story, we'll get away with this too. Now, the issue of why Matt Rastelli needed 7:42 to be executed is, you can't be explained. The only issue is to save her daughter, Kate, 7:49 some headache and heartache and financial responsibility in a divorce. But like, like, 7:56 this was not a terrible guy. I mean, mom didn't like it. But like, there was nothing 8:02 about Matt Rustelli that should have made anybody think let's kill him. 8:07 So the mother was a, not only a thief and a lawbreaker, but she was, it seems to me, 8:14 or at least from what I could discern, remarkably manipulative. 8:18 She had a Svengali-like power over her kids. 8:23 She reminds me of Santé Kynes about who we did a number of stories. 8:27 And in the similarity also includes the fact that the children are still besotted with their 8:36 mother. The sons in Keim's case still talk about how much they love her, even though she did all 8:42 these dreadful things and made them do dreadful things. And I was fascinated by Terrilyn and how 8:48 she wanted to believe that there was nothing terribly nefarious going on. 8:55 Terri-Lynn is a wonderful character, and also I think basically a very good person. 9:01 I think nobody wants to believe the worst about their family, and I think Terri-Lynn 9:07 has a lot in common with a lot of other families. 9:09 I think it's very hard to believe that this mom that you've seen sort of get away with 9:16 little things over the years has now graduated to the big time and is doing a murder. 9:22 And, you know, when Kevin was arrested and then, and then Kate, I think Terralyn still 9:27 expected very quickly that the police were going to realize they'd made two giant mistakes 9:36 and set them free. 9:37 You know, you can see her in this episode sort of starting to change the way she thinks 9:43 about her mom and sort of what, what, what hell she sort of wrought on her, on her 9:49 brother and her sister and other people in the family too. 9:54 And I mean, that was the huge value of Terrilyn 9:58 is that she's sort of changing her opinion. 10:00 Maybe at the same time, the audience is kind of realizing, 10:03 wow, this is a lot bigger than I thought. 10:05 And then, you know, at the end, 10:06 I think Terrilyn came to and does realize 10:09 the way things really are. 10:11 Now, you know, I mean, there are people in this story, 10:19 in the Rusteli family, who believed that Tarolin has some culpability here for which he's never 10:25 been charged. But there is, there really is no evidence that Tarolin had anything to do with this, 10:31 except it was her idea apparently to put the air tag in Matt's truck. But that was at the time 10:39 when she believed that Kate was escaping an abusive relationship. So that kind of made sense 10:46 In that context her older sister and her mother kept telling her again and again with an awful awful person 10:53 Husband was and that he you know was dangerous and that if you're going to leave this man 10:56 You better do it without announcing it because if you announce that he might kill you. I mean it was that kind of serious 11:03 Allegation and why wouldn't she believe it, you know, she wasn't right? I mean 11:08 Nobody wants to believe the worst about their family. All right 11:13 Well, speaking of Tracy, when we come back after this little break, we'll hear more from Tracy's 11:18 police interview the night Matt was killed. 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There's no catch. 12:59 Up-front payment of $45 for three months, 13:01 90 for six months or 180 for 12 months. 13:04 Plan required, $15 per month equivalent. 13:06 taxis and fees extra initial plan term only greater than 50 GB may slow when 13:12 network is busy includes up to 20 GB hotspot capable device required 13:17 availability speed and coverage varies see mintmobile.com how does the 13:25 Adelson case intersect with this one and how did you find out about it you 13:29 know we were already interested in this story but then we found out that 13:35 But Tracy, the mom, had searched online. 13:40 The cops found this on her devices, had searched online new Dateline episode on the Adelson case, 13:49 you know, various searches about, about Donna Adelson and, and, you know, the two cases 13:58 are so similar, right? 14:01 I mean, there's a divorce. 14:03 There's a contentious custody battle. Now, in this case, the divorce hadn't even filed yet, 14:11 right? And it was just sort of, they're sort of thinking down the road to, like, 14:14 what's going to happen if there is a divorce and where are we going to live and who's 14:17 going to get custody and where the kid's going to be. But there was, in this case, 14:20 an impending divorce and an impending custody battle. And there was an actual one with 14:25 the Adelson's. But in the same vein, it is the mom, the matriarch of the family, Donna 14:32 in Florida and Tracy in Utah, who sort of puts this conspiracy in a motion and involves 14:39 other people, some members of the family, in this case it was all members of the family, 14:43 but these two cases are remarkably stunningly familiar. 14:49 And you know, look, I mean, sort of my, you know, the question I keep coming back to 14:54 is when I say to the prosecutor, did they miss the part of our story where those 14:59 people get caught and convicted? 15:01 it and he just kind of shakes his head and says, I think that Tracy thought that she could 15:07 do it better than Donna Adelson. 15:09 But there's also something where I've seen it before and I don't really wish to cast 15:16 dispersions on mothers-in-law, but there are certain people who do not like, whether 15:21 it's father-in-law, mother-in-law, do not like the person who's marrying into the 15:25 family. 15:26 Sure. 15:26 And that dislike will get to the point where something has to be done about that person. 15:32 And I mean, you just see how it all developed. 15:35 Yeah. 15:35 In that, this family, right, and Matt's family, they have a lot in common, right? 15:44 There are plenty of situations in which one or both families believe that this marriage 15:50 between their children shouldn't have happened and should end and that is going 15:57 on all over the United States and that is also where you know sometimes you 16:03 know manipulation of children by their parents for their own ends happens right 16:09 sure you know your mother and I have thought a lot about this and we think 16:13 that you and so-and-so should not be together anymore and I think that you 16:19 are, this is a lost cause for you son or daughter and you know, you should get out. 16:27 I think that goes on all the time, you know, parents sort of trying to run their lives by 16:32 remote control, run their lives of their kids. 16:35 But for it to go to murder, well, that's a little different. 16:40 That's something you don't see every day. 16:42 It's a reach. 16:43 All right. 16:44 I was fascinated also with Kate's behavior. 16:47 I wouldn't have imagined it, but her infidelities were kind of stunning. 16:54 How long did it take after he was killed before she was out there? 16:57 I mean, Matt wasn't even in the ground when she was going on her first date. 17:02 It's, I mean, first of all, there's no evidence that we know of that Matt 17:08 Rustelei was unfaithful to his wife during their reigns. 17:10 That certainly didn't come out. 17:13 there is plenty of evidence that Kate was stepping out all the time on him as 17:20 the years went by and then you know right after Mandy's shot to death in her 17:25 mom's living room right and she has to see his body as she leaves the house 17:30 right this is assuming that she has nothing to do with it right she's 17:34 still going out on a date like within a week I have to say I that is a cold 17:41 this that I'm, maybe I should be familiar with it, but I'm not. 17:46 No, that's a new one on me, that kind of speed with which the behavior begins. 17:54 And you would think that she would be aware that maybe people might be keeping track 17:57 of her activities. 18:00 That's one thing that you sense that they sort of didn't think about was, you know, 18:07 You know, a murder investigation doesn't end the night the person is killed and the body 18:14 taken away. 18:15 What Kate was thinking is sort of hard to fathom. 18:22 I think she was recording Matt's, her phone calls with Matt because she thought it was 18:26 going to turn up in court someday as evidence in a divorce case. 18:29 Why she kept those recordings, I don't understand. 18:33 And I, I, I mean, this, this was not an impossible plot to unravel. 18:42 I mean, the evidence was pretty much sitting there on their devices. 18:46 And, and I would like to point out police did not get all those devices the first day. 18:54 There was several days went by when those devices and all that, that 18:59 That damaging information was still in the, it was still the property of Tracy and Kate. 19:06 Now again, if you delete that stuff, a seasoned digital forensic examiner might be able to 19:13 recover it or at least reveal that it had something like that had been deleted. 19:17 So I mean, there is that, but there clearly was a sort of disconnect from the evidence 19:23 that existed to sort of Kate and Tracy believing, well, we're home free. 19:27 And even if we're not home free, Kevin's going to take the fall, not us. 19:32 Well, that was fascinating how not only would Kevin take the fall, but maybe he'd kill himself 19:36 afterwards and that was okay with the mother. 19:38 They were sort of ready to sacrifice him. 19:40 I mean, the sense you get from listening to them is that they saw Kevin as damaged 19:52 an asset to be sort of used the way they wanted to without any concern for his 19:59 welfare or future and essentially expendable and you know he's Tracy's 20:06 son just like Kate and Terrilyn are her children it's it's it's it's horrifying 20:15 frankly to think about a mom thinking about her kids like that but that is 20:20 apparently where we are. 20:22 Yeah, I guess so. 20:23 Then that phone call from jail that Kevin, you know, revealed that he was in part of 20:29 the plot. 20:31 Let me remind all viewers and listeners of something that is very widely known in criminal 20:37 justice work, which is when you make a phone call, when you're incarcerated, you, Keith, 20:44 I think, might particularly want to pay attention to this, just because I, you know, uh... 20:49 Right. 20:49 Right. 20:50 There is a placard on the wall in nearly every correctional facility that I've ever seen 20:58 that says, essentially, your phone call is not private. 21:04 It's being recorded and it's going to be listened to by other people. 21:08 Something to that effect. 21:09 Like this is not, do not think of this as just private line to the outside. 21:13 The only time you really have any privacy is when you're speaking with your attorney. 21:17 But you're talking to anybody else in your family or anyone of your friends. 21:21 They're listening. 21:23 And I think Kevin thought that because he had already been acquitted of conspiracy, right, 21:31 that he could then essentially confess to it, which is what he did. 21:36 And, you know, if he makes that call before the verdict, well, then that's evidence 21:42 it comes in. 21:42 He gets convicted. 21:44 Right. 21:44 Right. 21:45 The character I liked in addition to your young detective was the brother, Mark. 21:53 We had two brothers, but yeah, Mark was the... 21:55 Mark was the one that was primarily on the piece. 21:58 Both seemed like fine people, but there was something about Mark that really got under 22:03 your skin. 22:05 He's also, he's a very good guy, and I think, you know, as is frequently the case 22:12 when this kind of thing happens. 22:14 People are left with sadness and anger and regret 22:23 because, you know, he hadn't spoken to his brother in a while 22:26 because the Kate thing was so unpleasant 22:30 and he was like, you know, I just can't deal with this. 22:33 When you, you know, I don't know 22:35 that he said these words to Matt, 22:38 But I think his, I think what he, I think his feeling was when you finally deal with 22:46 this cancer in your life, which is your wife, then we're going to have a relationship again. 22:52 And again, that is an understandable thing. You cannot fault anyone for wanting to protect 23:01 themselves and their family and their kids from sort of the psychological damage of being 23:07 exposed to somebody in your life that is sort of damaging to others, right? Exposing them 23:14 to this other terrible relationship that's playing out in front of them. So I think he 23:19 thought like, look, you know, when you get right with your life, we'll be back. And 23:27 then, you know, Matt's gone. And I think he's thinking it was, oh, you know, I should 23:31 have called him. Well, I mean, I understand that. I don't think it would have changed 23:36 anything, but it's a, it's a, it's a very understandable reaction. 23:42 Sure it is. 23:44 And now he raises the children, which now, now he's got man's kids and, you know, 23:50 I mean, that's telling you what kind of person. 23:53 Yeah, right. 23:55 He is, right? 23:56 Because that, I mean, that more than whatever he did with that relationship with his brother 24:01 and K stepping up now and raising man's kids like that tells you who he is you know these 24:09 that great old expression that Murphy came up with it's not about the murder it's about the marriage 24:16 it applies so well but it is it's shorthand the the murder is about so much more than just 24:25 marriage. It's about all kinds of, you know, psychiatric difficulties that too many people 24:32 face in life. You know, a guy I know is a homicide detective says that he can classify all murders 24:43 into the motive. Is money, love, or pride, right? It's, I'm doing this for the insurance money, 24:52 or I'm doing this because I don't love you anymore but I do love this person and I want 24:56 to be with them now or it's pride and this is pride. 25:01 There's no financial windfall here for anybody with Matt Rustele being killed. 25:07 This is not about love. 25:08 Kate was not in love with somebody else. 25:11 I kept waiting for the insurance payout that there was some going to be some several 25:15 million dollar policy or something. 25:17 This appears to be about pride, power, and control, which was sort of who Tracy was and 25:27 who she'd been for a long time, I think. 25:29 We've talked about Tracy, but we also have more from her interview with police the night 25:35 Matt was killed. 25:36 At this point, investigators are still trying to figure out what happened, but the officer 25:41 already seems to think Tracy knows more than she is telling him. 25:46 So, he's on to her. Let's listen. 25:49 I am so in shock. I did his parents know. I did some calls. 26:00 I assume someone has at this point. I've only been here with you to be honest. 26:05 So, all that information I don't even know myself. 26:08 So, just to be like, Candid, I kind of feel like you do know a little bit more than you're bad non. 26:16 nope it was he appeared and I was in the kitchen I guess I'm more more talking 26:25 about with kind of stuff with with Kevin with Kevin nope not at all no idea 26:32 where he was no okay okay well again honestly it's the best policy I don't 26:42 I almost mean nothing. 26:44 Well I just wanted to come in here and see if you did remember anything because again 26:47 like I said I know you were singing like a lot of I don't know's and so I just wanted 26:51 to see if you remembered anything else and talk it with a little bit but nothing comes 26:56 to mind at all. 27:00 I interacted with Matt for like maybe three seconds and I didn't see Kevin and Matt 27:13 went around the corner and by the time I got, I don't, I don't even know. 27:17 I didn't see anything. 27:19 All I heard was noise. 27:21 What were the noises that you were hearing? 27:23 The shots. 27:24 That was the, there was no conversation, no confrontation at all. 27:29 Not that I heard. 27:31 Gotcha. 27:32 Honesty is the best policy. 27:34 Yeah. 27:34 Not apparently in that family. 27:36 Um, apparently not. 27:38 I mean, yeah. 27:39 Yeah. 27:40 Fascinating to listen to her answering questions from the officers. 27:45 The soft, spoken, calm, composed sort of demeanor. 27:51 That made it sound like she was calm and stung jealous. 27:53 Doesn't sound like a murderer, does she? 27:54 Yeah. 27:55 Yeah. 27:56 Doesn't sound like a murderer. 27:57 No. 27:57 She's got a whole act. 27:59 I mean, it's not hard to see why she sort of got away with things and was able 28:06 to kind of talk her way out of trouble repeatedly. And it's a couple of things. One is, it's sort 28:12 of that persuasive, gentle manner that she has, right? And she is smart. She is not a dumb person. 28:20 I mean, they made some dumb mistakes, but she's not dumb. 28:23 No. Well, I can see why this tale of family dysfunction would be the season premiere. 28:30 is quite a story. Where does it, among family stories you have covered, how does this one rate? 28:39 I would say right near the top. I mean, it is mind boggling. 28:45 Well, when we come back, let's have a look at some of the social media questions that we got 28:52 from this episode. There's a freedom in South Dakota. One that reminds you how travel is 29:02 supposed to make you feel. No crowds, no rush, no pressure. Just the freedom to 29:07 explore on your own terms. South Dakota has a way of surprising you. Five 29:12 million acres of forest, mountain lakes, national monuments and prairies. Get your 29:18 hiking boots dirty in the black hills. 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I'm glad that I actually did answer that so that 33:24 that made me very happy and that's sort of why I included it because it was so 33:28 unusual like that just I've never had anything like that happen in all the 33:33 years that they like somebody asked me you know how am I gonna deal with this 33:37 over the years and I know you know this because you've seen all these 33:40 people who've gone through this. Um, so I'm, um, um, I was glad that I was able to help 33:46 him at all. Um, cause he's having a very tough time. I mean, those are his kids too. 33:51 Well, and he will, he will for some time. I mean, lots of us have been through this 33:56 kind of thing and, and it doesn't go away. It never goes away. You just have to figure 34:02 out a deal with it. The other part of her question is the, the, uh, the, what Tracy 34:06 Tracy describes as the, as the, what does she say the, uh, the fight or freeze or freeze? 34:12 Yeah. 34:13 In, in the psychological terms, it's frequently talked about the flight, fight, freeze or 34:21 fawn, uh, syndrome and it's all sort of, you know, responses that different people 34:28 have from their sympathetic nervous systems to how they react to a particular trauma. 34:33 And so, you know, Tracy's saying, you know, when, when, when this trauma happened, and 34:39 by the way, I don't think anybody believes this. 34:42 When Tracy's saying, when, when, when the shots rang out, I froze. 34:47 That's why I took so long to call 911. 34:50 Again, this is one more thing that they clearly did not plan for. 34:56 Other people are going to hear the shots. 34:58 Other people are going to call 911. 34:59 the amount of time that you think you have, 35:03 I think they were waiting to make sure that Matt was dead. 35:07 That's what I think. 35:08 I think they were waiting to make sure 35:10 that he couldn't testify, 35:12 that he couldn't give his side of the story. 35:14 And then they put the knife in his hand, 35:16 the wrong hand, unbelievably dumb. 35:19 The wrong way. 35:20 The wrong hand, yeah. 35:21 Right, facing the wrong way in the wrong hand. 35:23 And I think only then did they call 911. 35:27 And they were pretty surprised. 35:29 I think Tracy was pretty surprised to hear from the 911 operator. Yeah, we already know about it 35:34 We're on our way and then they were there like that because they'd already had a big lead time 35:39 Here's a question from 35:41 2009 KKLA on Instagram 35:44 Interesting name does the grandfather kate's dad have any contact with the kids? 35:49 He seemed to love matt and knew his daughter and ex were trouble 35:54 The short answer is I don't know if he's having any any contact with the 35:59 with Matt's kids, I don't think there's a lot of contact between those two families 36:08 at all. 36:09 The caveat to that might be that Stan's not really a part of that family anymore and hasn't 36:14 been for a long time, so maybe he will. 36:18 But I'm actually unaware of any contact that he has with his grandchildren.
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