Anil Seth and Michael Levin debate whether brains are computers, how consciousness relates to substrate, and if algorithms can ever capture life and mind. Levin argues machines can access a platonic space of agency via embodied interfaces, xenobots, and compositional agents, while Seth challenges the software-hardware split using information theory, Granger causality, and psychophysics. Together they probe islands of awareness, degeneracy, bubble-sort side quests, LLM surprises, alignment, and how to ask better scientific questions.- 00:00 - Anil Seth & Michael Levin: Islands of Consciousness & Xenobots- 08:24 - Substrate Dependence: Why Biology Isn't Just 'Wetware'- 13:13 - Beyond Algorithms: Do Machines Tap Into a 'Platonic Space'?- 21:46 - The Ghost in the Algorithm: Emergent Agency in Bubble Sort- 29:26 - Degeneracy: The Biological Principle AI is Missing- 36:34 - The Multiplicity of Agency: Are Your Cells Conscious?- 43:24 - Unconscious Processing or Inaccessible Consciousness? The Split-Brain Problem- 49:32 - The Ultimate Experiment to Decode Consciousness- 57:31 - A Counter-Intuitive Discovery: Consciousness is Less Emergent- 1:03:39 - Psychedelics, LLMs, and the Frontiers of SurpriseSPONSORS:- HelloFresh: Get 10 Free Meals + a Free Item for Life. One per box with active subscription; free meals applied as discount on first box; new subscribers only; varies by plan. http://HelloFresh.com/THEORIESOFEVERYTHING10FM- Claude: 50% off Claude Pro, including Claude Code. http://claude.ai/theoriesofeverythingRESOURCES:- Michael Levin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s- Anil Seth [TOE]: https://youtu.be/_hUEqXhDbVs- Geoffrey Hinton [TOE]: https://youtu.be/b_DUft-BdIE- Living Things Are Not Machines [Article]: https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/- Classical Sorting Algorithms [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.05375- Michael Levin and Anna Ciaunica [TOE]: https://youtu.be/2aLhkm6QUgA- Being You: A New Science of Consciousness [Book]: https://www.amazon.com/Being-You-New-Science-Consciousness/dp/1524742872/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0- The Consciousness Iceberg [TOE]: https://youtu.be/65yjqIDghEk- Iain McGilchrist [TOE]: https://youtu.be/Q9sBKCd2HD0- Matt Segall [TOE]: https://youtu.be/DeTm4fSXpbM- Andres Gomez-Emilsson [TOE]: https://youtu.be/gi08eVU_-f8- MIT's Augmentation Summit: https://augmentationlab.org/summit- Granger Causality Analysis [Paper]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25716830/- Dynamical Independence [Paper]: https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.99.022143 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
